John Gormley on me, real estate blogs, and you
Posted by on September 16, 2008
Me: “A really good guy.”
Real estate blogs: “A bit of a mistake.”
You: “Loons…lefties…Saskatchewhiners…idiots.”
Audio clip from John Gormley Live – 09/16/08
Think about it. I am. ☺
I’m always happy to answer your Saskatoon real estate questions. All of my contact info is here. Please feel free to call or email.
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Norm Fisher
Royal LePage Saskatoon Real Estate
111 comments so far. We'd love to hear your thoughts.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:08 PM
“Who cares what the idiots think?”
Obviously John Gormley, or he wouldn’t be on this blog reading our “Saskatchewhiners” opinions.
I do enjoy listening to that program alot more when Murray Wood fills in as host.
Gormley did get it right though, that you’re “a really good guy” Norm, thanks for letting us “loons” that “are 35 years old in their mom’s basement” share our opinions.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:09 PM
Attacking an argument by attacking the person who makes it is an old trick. But it doesn’t refute the argument.
The bears on this blog think that housing prices rose too high and will fall, since they’re disconnected from fundamentals — wages and prices.
I’ve never thought much of Gormley, so the fact that he doesn’t think much of the comments here doesn’t surprise me.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:09 PM
As a feminist, semi-socialist member of society I am horrified to say that I agree with John Gormley (sorry . . . just moment, had to cancel my subscription to MS magazine) I found this website and thought that it might be a place to find out more info about housing in Saskatoon, (being in the process of thinking about upgrading) instead it is a place to talk about how much better Vancouver is, how horrible it is to think about staying in Saskatoon and how we can go to the same 5 events every year and think they are new.
I’ve been offered jobs outside of this province, outside of this country and outside of this continent and choose to stay in Saskatchewan. Standard of living has more to it than the price of your house.
I agree Saskawhiners have taken over this blog – maybe the rest of who read this and are looking for more than what they have to offer can start to contribute and comment?
April 27th, 2009 at 6:09 PM
In my humble opinion he’s a loudmouth designed to attract ears and sell ads on radio which promotes ignorance and stereotyping in order to sway public opinion towards the conservative flavour of the day, just like all the other Rush Limbaugh impersonators.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:10 PM
Ya gotta read more than one thread Pam.
Best thing about the blog is the stats at the end of the week. The numbers don’t lie, though the poster may.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:11 PM
“He has a blog, which is a bit of a mistake, on his real estate website. Because it attracts all the loons! There is a loon contingent in this province…”
– John Gormley, host of a four-hour daily open-line show, who appears to be feeling the sting of having to compete for the loons’ attention –
http://www.newstalk980.com/blogs/john-gormley
(Let the best loons win!)
April 27th, 2009 at 6:11 PM
Good to see Gormley is ignoring the real news, like usual, like the Canadian Medical Association Journal publishing an editorial and an article both slamming the Conservative government for undoing sound public health measures from previous governments and actually trying to convince the USA to step down to Canadian standards for food inspection. That’s huge.
A couple well informed people who think Saskatoon’s real estate boom is turning to mild bust, and it was hype from spinsters like Gormley, not news.
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/rapidpdf/cmaj.081477
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/09/16/listeria-meat-inspection.html#socialcomments
Where’s Gormley on the Canadian Medical Association raising doubts about Public Health? and blaming it on his Conservative Party?
April 27th, 2009 at 6:11 PM
Nobody’s stopping bulls from posting. I agree the Vancouver talk got a bit over the top. I’ve never felt the boom is an illusion (it’s a commodity boom, which are famous for going bust). I just think the housing market has/had gotten over zelous. The environment here for first time buyers is pretty bad; unless you work in the resource extraction sector, I guess.
Herr Gormley’s answer to dissenting opinions – silence them. I’ve got zero respect for this demagogue. It’s like McCarthyism with this guy. If you’re bearish, then you’re a communist loon. His comments just reinforce my impression of him; filled with anger, hatred, and agression. Bill O’Rielly’s got nothing on this guy.
There used to be tonnes of bulls on here! I think their outlook has been tempered somewhat. Gormley, on the other hand, is firmly in the “boom till the sun burns out” camp. Good luck with that. I’ve never known somebody to harbour such hatred for their fellow citizens. Imagine what this guy says in private!
Curious Norm, what are you thinking? Taking Gormley’s advice and shutting ‘er down?
April 27th, 2009 at 6:12 PM
curious to know what Gormley’s take on burgeoning inventory and relatively meager demand is? Lefty loons scaring everybody away? Saskatchewhiners making stuff up?
I think Jen hit the nail on the head. People are starting to be more critical and analytical about what’s being fed to them; and the John Gormley’s of the world don’t like it. So, he’s turned to attack mode. This blog doesn’t get nearly the exposure that the Star Phoenix and Leader Post get; but he’s attacking the discourse here? Little bit on the defensive maybe?
April 27th, 2009 at 6:12 PM
There were bulls galore — and lots of innocents, folks who thought that it would be really a good idea to buy before they were ‘priced out forever’.
All the bulls shyly crept away as soon as inventory began to build and sales started to fall, back in the spring. With the exception of armoth (who’s a bit of a Ferdinand) and Curran (?do I have the name right?) this has been a pretty bearish zone.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:13 PM
Good call Dirk,
People from across the country are raising flags about the alleged housing and commodity bubble – not just the “loon contingent” here. But if all you listened to was John Gormley, that’s what you’d think. Scary to think he’s the only place some people get their information.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:13 PM
Yep, I almost made mention of Armoth’s tenacity. I respect him for it. I think he’s mistaken in his approach, but he has stuck to his guns (for the most part – his language has softened quite a bit since the other bulls abandoned him).
Did you read his last post on the other thread? I don’t know if steadfast, unwavering confidence in the futures markets is the best course right now. But, as always, good luck!
(See that Gormley? Civility toward those you disagree with).
April 27th, 2009 at 6:13 PM
“Lefty loons scaring everybody away? Saskatchewhiners making stuff up?”
Yes, that’s got to be it… it has nothing to do with the fact that there is a housing downturn in dozens of countries which got too loose with their credit. Nothing to do with the fact that speculative RE “investing” and credit default swap contraction is unwinding rapidly in the US as we speak. Nope, it’s all due to “negative thinking”. Silly us.
Call realistic analysis anything you want. Faith in nonsense is still nonsense.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:14 PM
Scared,
Oh’ you’re too kind.
jrochest,
“Attacking an argument by attacking the person who makes it is an old trick.”
I agree, and it’s used all too often here.
I doubt that Gormley has a big problem with people who feel the housing market moved beyond the fundamentals, or even those who have concerns about the global economy. If you listen closely, he’s really talking to those who try to make the case that there’s nothing special happening in Saskatchewan. Only a fool would argue that there isn’t serious cause for financial concern around the globe but it’s hard to deny that Saskatchewan is in a better position than most provinces or states to ride out a tougher time.
Pam,
Thanks for the comment. Hope to hear more from you. The submit button does not discriminate.
Rush,
“The numbers don’t lie, though the poster may.”
Uh, ya. Thank you.
Jen,
Ever hear that old saying, “the whole world is crazy, except you and me, and I’m not s sure about you?” I suppose we are all a little looney.
Dirk,
Listeriosis? C’mon! We’re talking about Saskatchewan and our economy here. Broken hips anyone?
guy_in_regina,
“Curious Norm, what are you thinking? Taking Gormley’s advice and shutting ‘er down?”
Yes. I’m going to shut it down on my way out of the business. This blog is one of the best “mistakes” I’ve ever made. There are days when the negativity depresses me, but then the phone rings and I get to help a well informed consumer buy or sell a house. There are still a lot of people who want to buy a home in Saskatoon including most of you “loons.”
It’s actually not a bad gig.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:14 PM
Norm — of course it makes sense to keep a blog: it gives you a profile, it gives prospective buyers a chance to know you (and trust your judgment, an essential for a salesperson) and it beats all hell out of stuffing business cards in mailboxes.
You’re crazy like a fox to put up with the lot of us.
I agree that Gormley’s talking less about the bearish attitude to the housing market and more about the general skepticism about the ‘boom’. But at the core of it, the arguments we have on here really are about housing. And if he doesn’t think there’s a problem with housing, the next year or two will prove him wrong…
April 27th, 2009 at 6:14 PM
Hey Gormley ignores real news stories to complain about bloggers complaining about housing.
Like usual, I found out about the CMAJ article nailing the federal government’s handling of public health on thebench first. Gormley is busy getting mad about the right to free speech we all enjoy.
Some news service he is.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:15 PM
If I don’t actually live in Saskatchewan…can I still be a “Saskatchewhiner”? Maybe an “Alber-hater”? No – Gormley’s is wittier.
Whether you agree or disagree with John Gormley, you have to take him with a grain of salt. The guy gets paid for ratings and so will be as opinionated as possible. Shades of Bill O’Reilly or Newt Gingrich. I know a lot of friends who claim that they “hate” Gormley – but listen to him regularly. So he’s just doing his job.
For what it’s worth – I think this is one of the best RE blogs around. There are both viewpoints, articulately represented, and a moderator who doesn’t feel the need to randomly censor anything they don’t agree with. I always enjoy checking in on the discussion.
jrochest wrote:
“Attacking an argument by attacking the person who makes it is an old trick. But it doesn’t refute the argument.”
The actual term is called an “ad hominem” argument. Mind you, that’s an awful big latin word. Kind of “lefty” sounding if you ask me, lol…
If John Gormley thinks all bears are “lefty loons” and all – I would be more than happy to go on his show and chat with him and his “this boom will never end” optimism. I like to destroy people’s hope based arguments with those annoying “facts”. I’d like to see his rebuttal to some simple mortgage calculator math.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:15 PM
ahaha, have to listen to this…
April 27th, 2009 at 6:15 PM
Warren – I had actually sent an email to Gormley asking if he was willing to debate one of the “Saskawhiners” Maybe he could take you up on your offer – it would make for good listening (as long as he didn’t cut you off!
April 27th, 2009 at 6:16 PM
Armoth:
I haven’t heard from you in a while and was wondering what your thoughts on the TSX’s 3 month 20% haircut was.
All I will say is that one of human nature’s worst habits is that we hold onto losing positions too long and get out of winning positions too soon. Just a thought.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:16 PM
Oh man, that’s it? I thought it would be a little more substantial. How many 35-year-olds living in their parents basements here? Come on fess up…
Ah don’t be too upset bears, he’s just having fun with y’all. I know, and Gormley knows, that your secret desire is to own a home in Saskatoon. Why don’t you just come out and admit it? Admit you love this place and want your piece of the rock. No? Ah well, go on living in denial then.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:16 PM
Every Blog will attract a dominate segment that doesn’t represent the entire population. In general, the demographics of the blogger vs. non-blogger segments are quite different. Visit Digg.com and you will be pressed to find articles in support of John McCain. Obama may win, but not buy the margin Blogosphere is representing.
Reading this blog would give the impression that Saskatoon is just not affordable. But how can this be? At least 80% of the people I know in Saskatoon between 25-30 own their own home. Some of them own rental properties as well. I think that is what Gormley is saying… in a slightly more prickish way.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:17 PM
Callum,
I don’t think anyone on here is denying that they love Saskatchewan/Saskatoon or that they want to own a home here.
There is a certain level of frustration with the current RE situation in this city and everyone expresses that frustration differently.
Just because someone points out that its almost as cheap to rent in Vancouver as it is in Saskatoon doesn’t mean they want to move there.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:17 PM
“At least 80% of the people I know in Saskatoon between 25-30 own their own home”
As a matter of perspective, I could say the opposite of the people I know
April 27th, 2009 at 6:18 PM
Jeff,
“I don’t think anyone on here is denying that they love Saskatchewan/Saskatoon”
The odd one has a strange way of expressing that love.
A great many of the bear arguments are reasonable and sound. There are some comments that demonstrate the writer’s bitterness and ill will towards Saskatoon. Some comments are clear fabrications which are intended to cast Saskatoon in a bad light for that person’s own interest. Of course, we’ve seen this from some of the more bullish as well.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:18 PM
You’re right Norm, there are the odd haters out there and there are definitely trolls on both sides of the issue. I was just defending what I saw as an over-generalization on Callum’s part that all “bears” are hoping for the downfall of this city/province.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:18 PM
I have to apologize for lurking for so long while selling my home and buying another. I’m one of those “silent optimists” that reads this blog.
The thing is, people don’t just read the blog and compare the number of positive comments to the number of negative comments. We have the ability to analyze whether people are whining or if they’ve brought up a point we haven’t considered.
There are a few people who I think should just move away if they hate Saskatoon so much. I love Saskatoon and even though it would adversely impact the equity I have in my new home, I hope home prices do moderate so that more people can afford to stay here.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:18 PM
Gormley’s last words of the posted segment struck me ironic.
“I don’t care what you think”.
Mr. Gormley, on behalf of all us sitting in our mother’s damp basement wearing last week’s undershorts a single word comes to mind.
DITTO!
April 27th, 2009 at 6:19 PM
Pungo,
Thanks for the comment and congratulations on your successful dealings.
“We have the ability to analyze whether people are whining or if they’ve brought up a point we haven’t considered.”
Bingo. An excellent point, and absolutely accurate based on my own experience. We are contacted daily by people who have been reading this blog for a long time.
My associate and I wrote a number of accepted offers last week. All of these clients are aware of the arguments for, and against the Saskatoon real estate market. People buy for various reasons and the “investment” value is rarely at the top of the list when we’re talking about homes.
Larry,
Lol. Put on some fresh gotch and get your butt outside.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:19 PM
“The numbers don’t lie, though the poster may.”
Meant to type posterS.
As in us anonymous posters on the boards, not you Norm.
Keep up the good work.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:20 PM
Props to Norm for keeping and having this blog up and running.
As for Gormley, anyone can come up with ‘buzzwords’ to explain or insult someone without knowing situations. I’m sure it’s not just whiney 35 year olds living in mom’s basement…first of all why would those people whine!? They got it made man. Come on, they can live at home, collect thier comic books, watch thier sci fi, have hot nerdy girlfriends, and in the end inherit the house for free! I’m just sayin…
April 27th, 2009 at 6:20 PM
Gotta say I normally can`t stand Gormley, but I do agree that I hope this is not the site that persons from other regions find first when considering moving to Saskatoon, and for once I`m in agreement with him on more than one point, in fact I agree with all of them, even most of the opinions in this blog.
Although someone should tell Gormley that the point of a real estate blog is simple marketing – not of the agent to the masses although that may happen but for the site to the search engines – of course Norm won`t shut er down until he leaves the industry (hopefully you weren`t foreshadowing with that comment Norm) His business benefits way to much from the top Google ranking he has.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:20 PM
Brian,
I think people are smart enough to read and then come to a conclusion. Some points on both sides do have thier merit’s. The thing a person doesn’t want for people moving here, is like the gentleman in Calgary who was thikning of moving out here…that is until he heard the actual prices of things after asking me and my gf.
The issue I think is that one can’t get updated information on sites such as the CMHC’s website, and in many searches it still sounds like Sask is the cheapest place to buy or rent…
News that there is an economic boom is everywhere, whether it’s good for citizens or not (I haven’t seen a dime) has yet to be seen. Roads are still in horrible shape etc…but to get back to my point, Norm’s site is great beucase it IS high on the google rating, AND gives accurate numbers with some ‘opinions’ on either side for a person to mull over to make a more well informed decision.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:21 PM
I think it’s fair to say that even a 35 year old idiot who hangs out in his mom’s basement in his underwear would be smart enough not to base his decision on whether or not to move to Saskatoon on a bunch of anonymous blog comments. There is no shortage of information available on the cost of housing for anyone considering a move here. One can, for instance, view all of the property listings on the MLS and get a pretty good idea if an appropriate home is affordable for them. I’ve never relocated but I would think that a person considering such a move would weigh their employment opportunity (a job offer) and the cost of housing (actually researching properties) and be able to reach a conclusion on whether or not it’s a good move. It’s not very complicated really.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:22 PM
I would just like to say that I am not involved in Real estate in Saskatoon. Because of this blog I consider myself informed on the current market because of it’s unbiased reporting. The numbers don’t lie, however the opinions may. I am recently a graduate of the college of engineering and I would say for first time home buyers that this market is unaffordable with the current salaries being offered by Saskatchewan business’. I would go far enough to say that this BOOM mentality has been manufactured by a select few. As a recent graduate in a desired field, I have found it somewhat frustrating to find a job here in Saskatchewan. The reason we have the highest retail sales in the country is because everyone all at once decided to “redecorate” their homes, or maybe even flip them? ha. I will agree that some people made some serious bank over the last year or so, but there is going to be some people that lose their hats. Either way, I want to thank you for putting in your time to create this blog and allow for comments to come from both sides. I would say that people should be able to base their decision on what facts are presented to support different arguments. If someone wants to ignore all the warning signs, then good for them for investing in at the peak of the market because it isn’t my problem when it crashes. Because of this blog I consider myself in the loop on the current RE situation in Saskatchewan. I don’t check in everyday but when I do I know I can rely on accurate reporting and educ
April 27th, 2009 at 6:22 PM
FYI
If we ever consider the move back – Norm would be the first REA we would call.
Norm, as far as I am concerned, this blog has done nothing but build credibility and respect for you.
AND – we love Saskatoon – weather and all. Just couldnt risk our financials on what was happening. We arent doom and gloom, but certainly I feel hazed every time I make a comment about reality and perspective for the market.
Can anyone really deny that what happened in a year over year period was a little crazy and worrysome? And as we move forward with the TSE and DOW and now house prices uncertain? Gormley just ticks me off. Loon? Theres lots of very highly educated people on here.
By the way Gormley – the kettle called and guess what
April 27th, 2009 at 6:22 PM
Gormley said:
“there’s saskatchewinners and saskatchewhiners.”
Is that kind of like ….?”
He also said:
“why would you have a blog on a real estate site?”
Why would you have a blog on a radio station site?
Edited by moderator
April 27th, 2009 at 6:22 PM
Norm the 35 year old could do worse, he could listen to Gormley, the Conference Board of Canada and the Real Estate Association, all would have him take out the biggest loan possible and sit back and wait for his 1 bedroom condo to keep going up in price… starting tomorrow
April 27th, 2009 at 6:23 PM
The Dude thinks johnny boy is right. The Dude has read a lot of crap on this site. The Dude would like to point out a few examples: posts that deal with partisan politics, global warming (oops I mean climate change), people conversing about what stocks to buy, personal attacks on each other, etc.
Just a second, The Dude has changed his mind and thinks Gormly may be wrong.
The Dude feels that only half of the posters on this site are complete loons, the other quarter are somewhat amusing and the last quarter are very insightful and intelligent.
The Dude also finds it funny that 100% of the people who read this post wil think they fit into the “insightful and intelligent” category.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:23 PM
Dude! It’s good to see you back.
“The Dude also finds it funny that 100% of the people who read this post will think they fit into the “insightful and intelligent” category.”
Too funny. I also think it’s funny that whassisname unwittingly made this site even more popular.
Admit it, Norm, you set this whole thing up.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:24 PM
Why would realtor have a blog, Gormster asks?
Well, Norm has proved why: so he can have the single best real estate information and discussion site there is about the Saskatoon real estate market.
Rock on, Norm.
Edited by moderator.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:24 PM
I have nothing good to say about Mr. Gormley – not one thing.
I listened to his program for the first time in 2004. That was plenty enough to realize that he’s not interested in intelligent debate and discussion. If he disagrees with your opinion, he cuts you off the air and brags that he trashed your argument.
I’m sure he’s likable to some – if you’re far right-wing conservative ignoramus.
The irony of the conservative perspective is that they boast about their business prowess (strong economies etc.), and yet, it appears one of their own (Gormley) can’t see a downturning market for the life of him.
In Saskatchewan, conservative governments have a history of loose spending. Anyone need some home improvements done? Don’t worry, your conservative government will pay for it. Sounds like a good investment to me! How is Grant these days?
April 27th, 2009 at 6:24 PM
Grant Devine I assume? I dunno. Go ask him.
It’s too early to tell, but the Sask party is sitting on a big windfall. I think they should put most of it in the bank … oh wait… actually I don’t know…
April 27th, 2009 at 6:25 PM
Nick,
Nobody is really in denial that the housing market has turned. I’m sure John realizes that, and I think the “Realtor Associations” do as well. As long as you shall live I really doubt that you’ll see a doom and gloom press release from SRAR. People need to use their noggins and understand that Realtor Associations speak for Realtors. The poor man that writes these things puts his job on the line each month when he writes his release. I don’t envy him.
Tell me this though. What does the Conference Board of Canada have to gain by promoting false information about the Saskatchewan economy?
Do you actually believe that the provincial economy is in the tank? This is the point that Gormley is specifically challenging on.
Crikey,
“Admit it, Norm, you set this whole thing up.
”
I had no idea it was coming. I have met John and we have many common friends because I worked for Rawlco Radio before I got into real estate but he and I have not spoken in a long time.
When I heard of his comment I was a little shocked. When I actually heard it, I laughed out loud. I can absolutely relate to what he is saying about people who deny that Saskatchewan is in a great position right now and there are times when it’s hard not to hit the delete button on some of the outrageous spin that gets posted. Some people are too willing to trash every bit of good economic news but will happily quote the same sources when it serves them.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:25 PM
What I find amusing is that when times were tough in the early 90′s, ”Wormley” bailed and moved to Edmonton. Yup, way to support the economy ”Wormley”. Rather be a sask a winer ( cause I voice an opinion rather then a bailer.) 97 homes on my street, 7 for sale right now, 25 k to 50 k drop in asking prices so far. Take your pick. Happy hunting.
MVA
April 27th, 2009 at 6:25 PM
No really, that was just me being sarcastic! I honestly didn’t think for one second that you “set the whole thing up”. I apologise profusely if you took that comment seriously- I didn’t mean it that way.
I don’t think I’ve ever said anything nasty about the province or the city. Every place has it’s challenges. I do, however, have a hard time with the “irrational exuberance” stories. I moved here for an improved quality of life, and I certainly got it. I would always assume that if anyone was too miserable about this place to live here, they would just leave.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:26 PM
Crikey,
No offense taken. I took your comment as it was intended.
Also, please note that I’m not suggesting that your comments have been over the top. I see nothing unreasonable about comments directed at housing, the global economy, or even the future of the Sask economy. I think most of us can agree that there are some serious questions hanging about right now.
We do however have a 3 billion dollar budget surplus, good job and income growth, pretty good GDP growth compared to most provinces, many positive projects on the go, etc. Those that want to suggest that these positives are manufactured don’t come across as very credible and I can understand why they might be referred to as “loons.”
Some people are committed to living in misery and they find joy in helping others do the same.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:26 PM
Yes, I agree, the Saskatchewan economy looks far better than most. You’ll get no argument from me there. We’re just a few months’ off from a commodity boom, which has slipped significantly since it’s peak. That’s not to say it won’t peak again in the near future, I must admit. Nor does it mean it will.
The economy appears to be doing well because it lags events in the financial world. The contraction of credit is a leading indicator, and that indicator is flashing red. Where finance leads, the economy will follow, probably relatively quickly if we see a cascade in the financial markets.
I’m not trying to be pessimistic here, but just as the price of real estate can’t zoom wildly ahead of people’s incomes, the economy can’t operate independently from the financial system.
That’s all I’m saying.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:26 PM
Norm,
If my memory serves me correctly there “were” some bulls who put quite the spin on how SK’s real estate market will just keep skyrocketing and people will be priced out forever if they don’t buy in. It goes both ways. I also don’t see many of us bears on here flat out denying a positive economic outlook for SK… I certainly haven’t.
As far as Gormley goes I take all of those descriptions as compliments coming from him! Great to see he reads the blog! Hmmm, I wonder which alias he’s posted under…?
April 27th, 2009 at 6:27 PM
Personally, what gets me about the whole economic numbers, is you’re right, the numbers, they aren’t faked, if there is a surplus there is a surplus. What I don’t understand is how that translates to the average citizen or family that works their 40 hour work week and puts food on their families tables. We have this big surplus…now besides healthcare…and even that is questionable…what does that do for the average citizen (family)? Do we get a bus system that runs on time?
Will we see a reduction in tuition? gas taxes? property taxes? will sask power and saskenergy still get approved for a rate hike every year or 2? provincial income tax reduction? etc?
This is the part of the picture that I never understand. Sure the province can bring in 100 billion dollars but if the average citizen who busts their butts doesn’t see one ounce of benifit from it…
Just saying…
April 27th, 2009 at 6:27 PM
Dirk, are you the Dirk Diggler from
the cbc news website!?
if so, you rock and I dont know why people find you so offensive.
hahahahahahah this is all too funny.
john gormley can k!ss my butt lol.
he did, in an unknowingly way, make this site more popular!
too funny
April 27th, 2009 at 6:27 PM
Jesse,
Give it time, you will see improvements. The government is spending more than usual on infrastructure now, roads etc, and will continue to do so. Keep in mind the gov’t is also paying down debt. Which is great. At the current pace, even if oil stays where it is today, the province will likely be debt free in the next five or six years. Sooner if oil goes back up to 150 a barrel. Then you would likely see a scaling back of the PST, lower provincial income tax, and even more infrastructure, health care spending etc. Can’t remember exactly what our provincial debt is, and how much we are paying down this year? But losing that eventually will free up lots more money.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:27 PM
Heather said
If my memory serves me correctly there “were” some bulls who put quite the spin on how SK’s real estate market will just keep skyrocketing and people will be priced out forever if they don’t buy in. It goes both ways.
Yep, there were: look back over the posts of last summer and fall — there were lots of them.
Vanished. Vanished in the wind.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:28 PM
jrochest, heather,
you mean people couldn’t predict the future?
keep in mind, it wasn’t all just spin. i mean face it, being potentially priced out of the market forever now seems like a pretty valid reason to have bought in 2004, 2005 or 2006, rather than wait. how could anyone know when the peak would be? The trend was up.
when i bought my first house in regina in 2002, I paid 110,000 for it. I was worried I was paying a peak price, because the house had been up for sale three or four years earlier for 67,000. I lost sleep over it. Almost didn’t buy it. Last year, I sold it for 270,000. Watch that happen around you for several years in a row, especially if you don’t own a house, and it gets pretty hard to know when exactly it’s going to end.
Nobody thought real estate would rocket upwards each year forever. most people knew gains would eventually flatten out at the very least, but who could say at what point? You guys? If so, let’s hear which month we’ll see the bottom of the correction? I’m guessing bears will still be predicting drops, following a trend like bulls on the way up, long after the bottom has hit and things begin to improve. Nobody knows the future. It isn’t all spin. Some is, but not all of it.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:28 PM
Heather,
I haven’t forgotten. I also recall that they were sufficiently whipped for it. Even those who put forward their arguments that our economy was ripe for growth were kicked to the curb as “pumpers.”
Jesse,
I’m not an expert in such things but a massive budget should lead to some of the benefits you’ve outlined. Somehow there has to be $3 billion dollars worth of benefits to the Sask population that tax payers won’t be billed for. I hope that debt reduction is a serious priority.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:28 PM
Mark – Oh, people were predicting the future. That was the point: they knew that prices were going to keep going up *forever*, because real estate prices never fall! This meant that paying any price at all to buy any property at all was justified, because the price would always climb and you’d always make money!
Bubbles are always future-focused.
“Priced out forever” is one of those trigger statements — like “it’s different this time” — that indicates a bubble forming. It’s not possible for that to happen. Prices can’t rise beyond the price an average person can pay: when they do, people stop buying and prices drop.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:29 PM
And as to ‘when precisely’ the bottom will hit — gee, can’t say. Which of course makes my entire argument null and void, eh?
I’d imagine that we’ll need to clear the 1700+ properties currently on the market, to start with. And I’d imagine that the global economic downturn might have to be weathered, since, as Crikey notes, there’s an eensy teensy chance that might have an impact on the local economy.
RE usually runs in 15 year cycles. This upswing’s been a mother, so god knows how long things will take to settle down.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:29 PM
jrochest,
being priced out forever isn’t as illogical as you suggest. Really depends on your own circumstances, changing demographics of your community, many things. Especially if your community is creating higher paying jobs in new areas and experiencing an influx of people. Are you and will you continue to be that ‘average person’ that house prices have to remain in reach of? A lot of people rent for life. You can also simply be priced out of the neighbourhoods you want to live in by those who can afford to carry the prices higher there. A single buyer on a government clerical salary could have bought a house in my old neighbourhood five years ago. Not even close anymore. Yet even at current prices, there is no shortage of demand for houses there. The average buyer and average house is clear as a concept, but both those things are in flux.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:29 PM
But isn’t that the problem? Pricing out a lot of people? I don’t think anyone would have an issue with things if the basic need of housing was available to the majority of people. I mean you say maybe not in THAT neibouhood…but what does that do generally for the people that can’t…you end up with areas where there is crime, where it’s dirty, where businesses don’t want to set up shop. You get the definite have and have not society. Fun when you’re a have, not so much when you’re a have not.
When prices continually increase, we’ve alreayd went from a Single income earner being able to buy a house, to now almost being standard to have 2 incomes to buy, the next step is to have it so 2 full time, higher waged people would be able to afford, and then what’s the next step up for the average house….several families in one house? The friends mentality?
I’m not talking rampant socialism here, I’m just saying there is something shifting in society (and in the province and has been for some time) that isn’t nessessarily great and fantastical for all like a lot will want someone to believe.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:30 PM
Mark: If there is “no shortage in demand” for houses in your neighborhood, your neighorhood is unique in Saskatoon.
The argument that prices were rising because of rising earning power was made all the way through the US boom, particularly in California, and it was never true.
Looser lending standards made it possible for people to borrow more than they could pay; special interest rates made it possible to afford the payments for a limited period of time; rapid appreciation made it possible to realize profits within months. All this made people willing to bid prices up well over what they could afford to carry: it was a speculative bubble.
As soon as prices stopped rising in the States it became abundantly clear that price increases *hadn’t* been driven by rising incomes.
Saskatoon may be doing better than it was two or three years ago (although there’s little hard data on that so far) but in order for salaries to underlie the price increases, they would have to have doubled.
I don’t think that’s happened. Call me a skeptic. Frankly, if they had, people would be buying up the current inventory, and they’re not.
I teach at U of S — I have a tenure track job — and so I’m in the top 10% of Saskatoon’s incomes, at least as far as the last census data goes. And I can’t afford to buy. That’s a red flag.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:30 PM
People say the numbers don’t lie, and I tend to agree (although economic data can be spun). Right now, the inventory/sales numbers seem to favour the bears.
Economic indicators are up, and that’s great – I’m glad the province is growing. But, the question on my mind is ‘do people’s perceptions of property values match the economic realities?’ I don’t know the answer. But, given the inventory/sales numbers, I’m leaning towards not. I do know that psychology plays a significant role in economics. The value of something is often determined by what people *think* it’s worth, but that value doesn’t always correspond to the underlying economic fundamentals.
So, I guess I’m saying, the fact that the province is growing and doing well, doesn’t mean that RE values can’t be overvalued.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:30 PM
jrochest,
i’m aware of all the reasons behind the american run-up, and the reasons why the canadian market avoided some of those excesses. not all, but some.
i’m in regina, not saskatoon, and by good demand in my old neighbourhood, i don’t mean that houses easily sell for what they did six months ago – 320,000. but a nice house still flies out of there at 280,000, far more than I could ever have afforded when I first moved there and paid 110,000.
Are you in the top 10 percent household income wise though? Most people I know who’ve bought houses in the last year have two incomes rolling in. Need that now. We sure do.
And Jesse,
My old neighbourhood, now desirable, used to be far rougher and more crime-ridden. Like City Park up there right? People buying houses in rough neighbourhoods is how they often improve, bit by bit. I know, easy for me to say, but still, I think it can be a good way to invest, especially as a first time home buyer, without a big downpayment. Provided you can find a street that’s on the upswing a bit and not too, too rough. You get a reasonably priced house, start building some equity, and stand a good chance of outperforming the rest of the housing market over the next decade as the neighbourhood improves further.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:30 PM
Yes but when that cost is dependant on a double income minimum (or a mighty high one person income, which most people don’t get before age 35), how can people still say it’s a ‘good idea’…now I wonder where the people that can’t afford it will go.
Again that’s the issue…it now takes 2 incomes (good incomes) to get into a house that is decent. So what happens to the singletons that for some reason don’t have a significant other, be it from working hard, or be it from just not finding the right person yet. Do they get shut out completely? Have they lost the option forever? Should they just be happy that however hard they work, they will never afford it? I guess the reaction could be ‘well since you’re not in the ‘found your love club’, you are also not allowed to have your own place.
The fact that you say that 280 is well above what you could afford a few years ago is key. IS it good that people can’t afford anything now? Doesn’t sound ‘good’ to me.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:31 PM
Thinking about these ‘denying the boom’ allegations.’ Honestly, I don’t remember many posts (any, really) that said ‘there is no boom.’ It’s pretty clear the price of potash, uranium, oil, gas, grains, oilseeds, etc. are up, and government coffers are full. Economic activity is up. Maybe there were a few ‘denial’ posts; but probably just fringe views (there have been out-there posts on the other side as well). Maybe someone in their underwear in their mom’s basement can go back and find some
I think what some people were getting at is that the boom isn’t that great for many. Paying down debt is good for everyone, so is investing in infrastructure. But, the price of housing more than doubling in a short period is not good for everyone, Rents going up 40%+ isn’t either. It seems most people saying housing prices are justified, and young people expect too much, are well established in life. They probably bought pre-boom (or back when you could do it with a full time job at A&W).
My concern has always been for first-time buyers, like me (suprise suprise) who are suddenly a long, long way from ownership; and for lower income people (or single parents) who have seen huge increases in rent. These people’s quality of life has deteriorated. Sure there’s lots of jobs and they pay better than before – but the majority still seem to be mcjobs. Plus, you need a better paying job just to keep up with rent and maintain your standard of living. So, yeah, wages are growing; but not as fast as expenses, not nearly in my experience.
I’m a recent grad with pretty significant student loan debt. I didn’t “wait” too long – I was in school. I’m worried that young people won’t be able to get established like previous generations have. And I don’t think it’s good for the province. After all, didn’t Saskatoon lose people during this here boom? *Some* Gen X’ers are moving back from Alberta, but lots of Gen Y’ers are leaving.
If you’re a shareholder in Potashcorp, or an oil worker, or lots of other things (including a property owner), then the boom has been a blessing. If you’re working the same job for the same pay as you were pre-boom (as most people are, I would argue), then the boom hasn’t necessarily been so great. So, Mr. Gormley, the next time you’re sitting in your house (which has tripled in value) complaining about young people complaining, consider the fortune you’ve had to be able to be able to buy your own home at a decent price; and the situation facing many young people just getting started. Record housing prices and rental rates, record levels of student debt, record energy prices, record levels of wealth concentrated in older generations, coupled with modest wage growth. It now takes 2 incomes to buy a home, and older folks seem to think that’s a-ok. And what about raising a family? My wife and I want someone to be home with the kids before they enter school; not struggle to find daycare spots in our broken child-care system. What about saving for retirement? I thought this boom was supposed to make Saskatchewan an even better place to live, work, raise a family and retire.
But don’t worry – I’m just a lefty loon idiot, so, who cares eh?
April 27th, 2009 at 6:31 PM
guy in regina,
i feel for you for sure. i was certainly lucky to buy my first house when I did. but i didn’t buy until i was in my early thirties. when i graduated from the U of S in 1994, there were no jobs here in saskatchewan. people were streaming out. i ended up going overseas for a few years, teaching english, paying off my student loan that way, returning and working for a few more years in Vancouver, buying rrsps, etc. then finally using those rrsps etc for a downpayment. it took a while. i think if you work for a few years, pay off some debt, buy rrsps, raise your income, you’ll be able to make it work. it just might take a few years. prices will either remain fairly flat, or drop over the next few years, and your income will be going up.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:31 PM
guy_in_regina,
That was a very well written and thoughtful post. I really enjoy the arguments that are backed up with examples from people`s lives.
Clearly when someone states that they couldn`t begin to afford to buy the home they have now, their argument loses some credibility. I just don`t get why people don`t see that. That just can`t be sustainable over the long term, over and above the cost of inflation and increases in incomes. If someone could tell me how they reason that people should need to go into ever increasing amounts of debt to afford the very same home they have now, I`d like to hear it.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:32 PM
Crikey,
My point was I couldn’t afford that specific neighbourhood if I was a first time buyer anymore, meaning you can get priced out of certain areas as demographics change. Plenty of second time buyers moving in there, having built equity elsewhere. There are still decent small starter homes in Regina for sale right now in the 160 to 180 range that first time buyers can afford, and those are on safe streets with homeowners. Broder’s Annex, Coronation Park, Churchill Downs, and the better streets in West Washington Park.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:32 PM
Thanks Mark,
I’m glad things worked out well for you; and for other Saskatchewan folk (as opposed to Calgary speculators).
I know it probably doesn’t seem like it; but I’m not out for sympathy – just understanding. I fully expect to have to work hard and save up over time to earn my own home – that’s the way it should be. And I’m not complaining about my student loan – it was an investment, and my choice. I’m just stating that student debt is a reality for young people in a way that it never was for the older generations, and I don’t know if there’s much understanding of that. I realize previous generations had to make their own sacrifices; namely, leaving (my 2 older brothers included). But, sometimes I think that people here are so eager to give young people what they never had (i.e. access to good jobs in province), that they forget about passing on what they *did* have (i.e. affordable housing). I also think a lot of people have just gotten plain greedy, and it’s a bit sad.
I think there’s generational differences in perspective as well. Older people just remember the exodus. But for my generation, things have been pretty good here. All through my late adolescence and early adulthood there were jobs for me – plenty of opportunity really. It wasn’t crazy like Alberta; growth was slow but steady, and that was almost preferable. And then just as I’m getting tantilizingly close to establishing myself in a home and starting a family – whamo! It stings a bit is all. And, I must admit, it has eroded my loyalty to this province somewhat.
Still, I know I’m actually in pretty good shape compared to a lot of people – and that’s what scares me.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:32 PM
On raising a family:
Gormley types tend to vehemently oppose government subsidized child-care; “that’s the parents’ responsibility” they say. Fair enough, I agree it’s obviously primarily the parents’ responsibility. But how can parents do that when they both have to be working full time to afford a house? Well, I’ve seen it posted that “if you can’t afford a family, then don’t have one.” In that case, I hope you guys are all staunchly pro-immigration, because I suspect very few young people are able to “afford a family” these days.
You can always raise a family in a condo, or an apartment, or a crumby “up-and-coming” neighbourhood, I guess – but that’s not the quality of life that people in SK are so fond of toting.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:32 PM
wow, i remember buying my first house in Regina in Coronation park for 36k. It was a 800ft house with only a crawl space and a single detached garage. it was however a double lot. The house was old and you could literally see cold air coming under the door in the winter. Insulation was poor. i kept it at 18degrees in the winter and my heating bills were still over $100/mth back then. My car got broken into 3 times that year. I sold it the next year for 36k so after commissions and repairs I had lost money on that house. I bet that crappy little house would go for almost 100k now. strange how things have changed so much.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:33 PM
Guy in Regina and others.
In case you didn’t know there are small communities in Saskatchewan that are within commuting distance of large centres. They have very affordable housing, great community spirit and are great places to raise a family. Your standard of living will be way higher. Unles of course you take into consideration the nightclubs, movie theatres etc. “poor” people can’t seem to live without.
Why people stay in large cities and then complain about prices and how expensive it is to raise a family boggles my mind. I talk to people all the time in my small hometown and the town I live in now and they all can’t believe they did not move sooner.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:33 PM
yes jimbo, becuase that’s what everyone wants out of life. to live in a small community and commute. big centres (200,000 is big?) should only be for the rich. it makes so much sense. one question though. how will all the fast food, and other minimum wage jobs be filled…by commuters? do you think the ‘people with money’s’ kids are going to work? good luck on that.
personally i’m a city guy, i couldn’t stand not having local access to movie theatres, shopping malls, libraries, bookstores, and so on.
“poor” people. i’m glad you don’t tend to be somewhat bias at all. there are a LOT of people that wouldn’t be able to live in a small town simply because of the ‘everyone knows everyone’ mentality, and the fact there is NO amenities.
not to come off as pissy but come on. why not say, hey in africa people live in grass huts…costs them nothing! why not build those! or better yet, dig a hole in the ground, it’d be insulated from winter cold….
April 27th, 2009 at 6:33 PM
Comparing living in small town Saskatchewan to africans living in grass huts or holes in the ground?
On second thought, stay in the city.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:33 PM
Jesse G.,
“in africa people live in grass huts…costs them nothing! why not build those! or better yet, dig a hole in the ground, it’d be insulated from winter cold….”
lol!
I’m thinking about going teepee
jimbo jones,
I’m not *too* sure, but it seems to me that these bedroom communities are priced just as high or higher (in some cases) as the cities; apparently because they have “great community spirit” and are “great places to raise a family.” From when I was looking a little while back, any place with “very affordable housing” was an hour away from the city – do you consider that “commuting distance”? I don’t.
Vinny,
Sellers would probably be asking for well over $100K.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:34 PM
What i’m saying is this. there are people that grow up in small towns, that will NEVER live in small towns again becuase of the things accustomed to small town life. Couple that with no local amenities, and a lenghty commute, esp if you work long hours, and you have a VERY long work week.
Not everyone is cut out for small town living you have to remember. How far would one have to move out…Warman is expensive, as are many other communities close to the bigger cetres. I’m just sayin.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:34 PM
With the price of fuel these days, commuting to save money on housing doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. In fact, it could turn out to be a major liability.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:34 PM
Life is small town is clearly not for everyone. I am shocked at the popularity of the local bedroom communities given the rising cost of fuel. I also think that in terms of city plan it just contributes to urban sprawl, traffic issues, etc..the type of quality of life indicators that people from Saskatoon value so much.
I know a lot of people are just waiting to see what will happen with the market and then once things settle people will start thinking through their choices. I have to say that re-adjusting what you want vs. what you can afford might have to happen for a lot of people, especially first time buyers. Because of the traditionally low housing market, people were used to the idea of buying a house right away. And yes, I know that people want the same or more than their parents had. But in many cities in the world, people purchase small things first (i.e. one-bedroom apartments) build some equity and move on to a two- bedroom and so on.
It isn’t fair for people who have good incomes, with pensions to say that they are priced out of the city. They just can’t afford to buy what they want right off the bat. So like other Canadian centers young people, single people, and first time buyers might have to make those types of re-adjustments. I am not saying it is fair…..
April 27th, 2009 at 6:35 PM
“I am shocked at the popularity of the local bedroom communities given the rising cost of fuel.”
I live in Warman, work in city. Bought a car that gets 50m/gallon. A small price to pay so my kids can bike across town to play with friends, or go to the movie store or get ice cream without locking up the bikes. Laid back atmospher makes it comfortable to shoot the breeze with the neighbors all down the street. We enjoy running into new friends at the local rink and parks.
Sure every town has its problems and small town living isn’t for everyone but you asked so I provided a few of my thoughts.
BTW: I like Saskatoon as well so please don’t make this a small town vs city bashing session.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:35 PM
Please ken, check http://www.fueleconomy.gov those are the REAL mileage numbers. the only way you’d get 50 mpg is with a Prius (and that’s the closest). The US can’t give fake mileage estimates anymore, canada however can.
I have nothing against small towns, I just know it woudlnt’ be for me, simple as that. There are many places one can love life, but when you start REMOVING choices that’s when it bugs me.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:35 PM
ken,
Sounds like a great arrangement. I grew up rurally and like the pace of life in the country/small towns – but, is housing in Warman any more affordable than the city? That’s what jimbo seemed to be saying, and that’s what my comments were directed at. My impression is that you have to go *a lot* farther out than Warman to find “very affordable housing.”
k,
“It isn’t fair for people who have good incomes, with pensions to say that they are priced out of the city.”
OK, but it’s fair for a Vancouver land-lord to tell young people in *Saskatchewan* they should be happy to raise their families in a 1-bedroom apartment and dream of upgrading to a 2-bedroom someday? That’s rich.
I know it’s easy to mistake the two; but Saskatoon is not Tokyo.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:35 PM
Actually, if you work on the west side of the river (which counts the north end), Warman is really reasonable gas wise. Highway miles are a heck of a lot more efficient than sitting on Circle Drive in rush hour.
If you work it out, the side of the river you work on can be a big factor on your cost of living. My job recently changed hours and position so I had to travel across town at 7:30am, instead of going to the north end for 6:00am. My gas consumption doubled just going to and from work. It was actually farther to drive before, but there’s no one on the road at 5:30am, so you can drive with less stopping and starting. At $72 a tank, that added up to a fair chunk over a year. I actually envied my co-workers who took the bus. I’m not about to switch daycares based on ever changing bus routes though.
Anyways, moral of my ramble: just because its a farther drive, doesn’t mean it takes more fuel.
Btw, Norm you kick butt! I’ve been reading off and on since we bought our house in early 2007. How far the blog has come!
April 27th, 2009 at 6:36 PM
Now what about cities adopting the newer urban planning known as ‘new urbanism’. The way our cities are thrown up isn’t very smart. I had someone here tell me that Willowgrove is one of these New Urbanism communities. It’s a lot of grossly thrown together houses with narrow streets, zero character and greenspaces at the back of each persons mansions (so it’s like being in a fishbowl). Shouldn’t we be getting away from the whole commuting to the ‘centre of downtwon’ and start building cities within cities?
One other thing….weren’t the commute times the big selling point out here for the longest time? if one’s now going to be ‘restricted’ to commuting, it’s not any quicker than a bigger city nessessarily. Things are starting to blur together.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:36 PM
Norm, what are the total # of listings looking like at the moment?
April 27th, 2009 at 6:36 PM
I’m not suggesting that this is the case with Jesse, or guy_in_regina but it seems obvious to me that the typical entry level buyer expects to enter the market at a higher level than first timers did 20 years ago. We would certainly expect this to be true if we are striving to improve quality of life as time goes on. I wonder though, with all of the turmoil in the financial markets if we aren’t finally at a point where there may be some rolling back on quality of life. Perhaps everyone is going to have to settle for a bit less as time goes on, and for the next while. North Americans are mortgaged to the teeth and as house prices slide some there is certainly some trouble brewing.
Laura,
Thanks for the kind feedback, and thank you for continuing to visit.
Groucho,
It looks like actives will be down a smidge from last week. They’re at 1739 right now but today’s sales are not posted yet.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:37 PM
Norm, not to get back into this, but the GDP growth in Saskatchewan was western Canada’s worst!
Save of course for the always optimistic Conference Board of Canada.
Well, Statistics Canada says Saskatchewan’s economy was a bit above average in 2007, but way behind BC (great value oil and gas land sales by a 3 to 1 margin), Alberta and even Manitoba, for the second year in a row.
The economy here is strong and healthy, but not any better than any where else in western Canada. Save of course for the Conference Board’s predictions – that always seem to be disproven by the actual year end results, which peg Saskatchewan as slightly above average, and well below Alberta. Same old. Same old. But now with more expensive housing
April 27th, 2009 at 6:37 PM
Anyway, I’m off for a while, the blogs been fun, but kind of more of the same for the past few months with inventory constantly going up, sales slowly creeping down, prices softening and a general acceptance a market correction is coming. Whether that is a 10% or a 30% drop in Saskatoon house prices, with condos falling more than houses, seems to be the only real question.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:37 PM
Its funny what people expect for their first house.
My 70 year old aunt has an interesting viewpoint:
“The trouble with kids today is that they want to start out where their parents ended up.”
I do believe it is a little harder now than it was then, what with rising education requirements and costs, and higher fixed costs such as heat, power and housing. But not a whole lot.
When my parents bought their first house in 1962, it was a vacant shack that came with a quarter of land that they had a 39 year mortgage on. It had a wood burning furnace, 5 light sockets and no indoor plumbing. Good foundation though.
For that piece of crap they worked 18 hour days. Thats bloody harsh! That was normal back then. I’m reminded of this when people talk about standard of living. Mine could slide a whole lot, and I’d still be light years ahead of where my folks started out.
I realize that only ‘lefties’ and ‘hippies’ say that the standard of living is too high. That’s like calling everybody lazy. But it does make you wonder what life will be like for kids in the future.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:38 PM
True. And if you go back even further, to midevil times or prehistoric times i’m sure it’d be different as well. The point is, there is progress. We’re at a point where progress falls back on itself if we aren’t careful. Maybe we should all walk 15 miles in our barefeet uphill to school too instead of complaining about high gas prices becuase hey, back then they couldn’t afford a car either…
btw wasn’t land given away fairly cheaply for settling the west? i’m not a history buff though..
April 27th, 2009 at 6:38 PM
Dan,
Thanks for stopping by. I suspect that it’s your kind of rhetoric and spin that John Gormley was talking about.
Talk about more of the same.
Oh, I noticed that you forgot to mention the nominal GDP numbers. Perhaps you’ll want to read up on that.
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/080515/d080515b.htm
April 27th, 2009 at 6:38 PM
I agree with Jesse G. Each generation progresses further ahead then the previuos. just look at us baby boomers. My dad always said how lucky we were not to run out back to the out house, or to have electric heat, and would often call us spoiled, and didn’t have a clue what hard living is. so to say our children should have to start out where we did is ridiculous. society has advanced! I know I sure as hell would not have imagined no indoor plumbing.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:39 PM
Jesse G the more I read from you the more you seem like a saska”winer”. Seriously dude, all you do is whine.
It’s tiring…back to real estate
I’ve noticed quite a few spec homes with sold signs the last few weeks in martensville and warman. They weren’t mls homes so there is no way to track but I’m wondering if others have noticed anything in saskatoon west side or stonebridge?
April 27th, 2009 at 6:39 PM
you forgot at home in mom’s basement.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:39 PM
Poor Norm- you sound a bit grumpy. I don’t blame you, frankly.
In the way of perspective, I’d like to draw some attention to what’s going on with our neighbors to the south. This is from the New York Times, and might be one of the most sombre articles I’ve read to date. It’s an illuminating read, and I recommend it.
http://tinyurl.com/3msj27
“WASHINGTON — It was a room full of people who rarely hold their tongues. But as the Fed chairman, Ben S. Bernanke, laid out the potentially devastating ramifications of the financial crisis before congressional leaders on Thursday night, there was a stunned silence at first.
Mr. Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Henry M. Paulson Jr. had made an urgent and unusual evening visit to Capitol Hill, and they were gathered around a conference table in the offices of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
“When you listened to him describe it you gulped,” said Senator Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York.”
I’m both a Canadian and an American citizen (born in CA), and I have to tell you- I’m sure glad to be living here right now. I’m not sure many of you realize how incredibly lucky you are to be here. I’m not saying it’s perfect by any means, but far better than most. This is a fantastic country, and this province is able to produce much of what we need to sustain ourselves. Not too shabby in the scheme of things, really.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:40 PM
Jesse,
and, in your underwear.
don’t forget that things are improving. That home you want is probably $200 a month cheaper than it was a few months ago. We need to get that boss of yours to step up with a raise. You should ask for ten points on Monday.
Crikey,
Lol. I had a great day actually, but yes, some of the nonsense can wear a bit.
Thanks for the link. Brings home the seriousness of the situation. Sounds like American taxpayers are going to be on the hook for this one, but there does seem to be some sense of relief that the end might be near. Jim Kramer, who warned of these collapses a year ago, and was laughed at, said today, “it’s over…Pretty much everyone who could go broke has gone broke.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26795151#26753403
April 27th, 2009 at 6:40 PM
Ahhh Crikey, ever the level head…
“incredibly lucky you are to be here… This is a fantastic country, and this province is able to produce much of what we need to sustain ourselves. Not too shabby in the scheme of things, really.”
Of course, you’re right. I do realize it (hard for some to believe, I’m sure). I actually have a degree in International Studies. The stresses and concerns of my life are meaningless compared to the horror of life in places like Darfur, Burma, Somalia, North Korea, Iran, DRC, Palestine, Iraq, and others. Even America in the midst of her crisis is quite good by global standards.
Interesting NYT story, Crikey. The financial markets have gone completely sideways. I generally don’t trust the unbridled markets. I think the financial situation right now backs me up on that. The invisible hand is fine and dandy; so long as it’s accompanied by a guiding hand.
Here’s an interesting link from the BBC about why this bail-out might not do the trick:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7626071.stm
Just when I thought the Bush Administration’s legacy couldn’t get any worse.
Norm,
I stand corrected; boom denial is alive and well. Your handling of it is admirable. Thanks for this great blog. I know I can be a negative nelly (I come by it honestly, I swear), but it has never been my intention to distort reality. All the best to you, and to the people of Saskatchewan.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:40 PM
This bail out is a *huge* move, and they’re trying to ram it through in a matter of days – but there’s plenty of scepticism:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,425625,00.html
April 27th, 2009 at 6:41 PM
The Bush Administration does not have a legacy, they are a black hole in American history.
Bush and his cronies aren’t going to be hurt in all this but the people sure will be. The American way is the Rich get richer and the poor pay for the rich mans mistakes. This bail out is the ultimate prime example of the philosophies and power of the rich American man. Those people running these banks and institutions are not going to be hurting from these bank collapses, they’re still going to be living in one of their many multi-million dollar houses and the guy busting his balls to feed his family is going to lose half his check to taxes to bail out banks. LOL!!! CRAZY!!!
April 27th, 2009 at 6:41 PM
Hmmm. I admire your optimism Norm, but I don’t think the end is near for the US at all- I think it’s just starting to unwind. The ripple effects of this are going to be felt for a long time.
Consider what’s happened in the last WEEK:
-Lehman, Merrill and AIG gone
-Fed taking pretty much anything as collateral to backstop toxic debt
-Central banks injecting massive liquidity
-3 month T-Bill going to 0.02% in the US; TED spread up huge
-1 money market fund “breaking a buck” (these are supposed to be as safe as cash!!!) due to high exposure to ABCP
-Russia’s market closed for 3 days due to instability
-Treasury saying No to Lehman; Fed saying no then yes to AIG 1 week after saying yes to Fannie & Freddie
-Merrill Lynch taken over with 70% premium to Bank of America in a shotgun marriage
-Gold vacillating over $80 in 1 DAY
-New rules instituted against short selling (huge and blatant market manipulation).
guy_in_regina, you’re right, this “privatize the profits and socialize the losses” mentality is horrifying. It’s really great how the “free market” is all fine and dandy while they’re making money, but they cry to be bailed when they lose. Just sick.
I’m done ranting now. Good night, all.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:42 PM
I know I’m going to sound like a looney left-winger, but I think this crisis is the just the beginning. It may wax and wane over the next decade, but all of our problems are just piling up in a heap that will eventually topple.
Crikey, I thank my lucky stars every DAY that I live in Canada!!! :’D
Wesco, it seems the most arrogant people are often the ones that attract a captive audience… unfortunate – yet ignorable. ;’)
April 27th, 2009 at 6:42 PM
Crikey,
To be clear, I said that Jim Kramer said it’s over. No, I don’t have much faith in the U.S. government to fix something this complicated. This is like the world’s largest credit card consolidation. America appears to be insolvent, and as long as the political system rewards those who promise more and more handouts it will just continue to get worse.
Yesterday, Jim Kramer was also overheard saying, “We’re all communists now!”
guy_in_regina,
“I know I can be a negative nelly (I come by it honestly, I swear), but it has never been my intention to distort reality.”
Sharing your own reality is not a distortion of reality.
Wesco,
The leadership at these banks should be headed for jail. That would be a good first step in fixing this mess. I think that the little guy loses in this either way.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:42 PM
it is what is…what will be will be…
aka. Get a life people!!! it’s too short to focus on doom and gloom ALL THE TIME (which judging by the same posters rehashing negativity, it happens to be a major portion of their lives)
…it is sad when you think about it
April 27th, 2009 at 6:42 PM
I say ‘Yay!’ to the negative people. Thank goodness we don’t live in China where poor Jesse G. would have been hunted down long ago for his honesty
It takes both ends of the spectrum for a good debate… which is why we’re here right?
Speaking of optimism, Donald Trump is telling anyone who wants to their first house to go for it. You can get a great house for a song now. There are always opportunities in a crisis like this.
Oh and by the way Jesse G… The crack about walking to school 15 miles? Considering the rates of childhood obesity now, it might not be such a bad idea! Zing..
April 27th, 2009 at 6:43 PM
Markets do work and are self correcting. The reason they are not working if because the government does not allow them to work. In the tech bubble of the late 90′s and early 2000, the bubble burst. Rather than allow the system to heal itself and purge bad debt, what did the federal reserve do lower rates and therefore pouring liquidity into the market(encouraging debt). This time however, the liquidity found a place in homes rather than stocks. Here we are faced with many of the same issues that result of a bubble burst and once again the fed is going to inject money into the economy. The only question is where is all the liquidity going to go this time? My guess commodities. But to suggest that free markets don’t work when they have not been allowed to work by the governing elite is hogwash.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:43 PM
“Oh and by the way Jesse G… The crack about walking to school 15 miles? Considering the rates of childhood obesity now, it might not be such a bad idea! Zing..”
No doubt. Same could be said for over 60% of the adults in this province too.
I hope I don’t come off as ‘always being negative’. There are a LOT of things I dont’ comment on that are brought up as positive too most likely beucase I agree with what’s being said and can see both sides (or at least I think i can…). What I try to do is provide some debate to issues to at least get people thinking more about things instead of blindly taking one side or the other.
I think this blog does a GREAT service to outside people for buying (or thinking about) housing in this city or province for that matter. It shows worthwhile postings, with Norm being (I swear) the most decent Realtor we’ll probably ever know of, and also shows positive AND negative comments. If there is honesty in the comments good or bad, it’s pretty clear to anyone if they just sit down and evaluate what people say.
All in all, a great place to visit and get some REAL (no spin) news.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:43 PM
To me, Gormley is kind of like Don Cherry, popular for telling it like it is, but the more you hear what he has to say, the more he just becomes plain beligerent.
I’m listening to 96.3 in the mornings now
And after some recent time in Alberta, we’ve got a long way to go to catch them prosperity wise.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:44 PM
And Norm, I think the economy is doing pretty good, just always surprising we keep hearing “predictions” from the conference board, and in the end, results always have Alberta beating us at pretty much anything, except housing price growth. And we keep treating these predictions as actual results.
I was going for a more tongue in cheek comment. I sincerely doubt Atch really has them on pay roll.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:44 PM
Nick,
“I was going for a more tongue in cheek comment.”
Yes, I caught that.
I realize that the Conference Board missed the mark on their prediction for Saskatchewan last year but I didn’t know that they have a history of over-estimating.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:44 PM
This guy is up there with some of our own local trash-radio goons. Which is why I don’t listen to their vitriol. In fact, having a clip provided to me for reference is about the only way I consume talk radio — unless it is Art Bell. In which case it’s just classic!
The notion that apes like Gormley do it for ratings is undeniably true. Their target audience is the ignorant, misinformed and egotistic average Joe/Jane. People who outsource their political views because they aren’t perceptive enough to derive one from the sum of their best interests.
That being said, I can’t accept the damage he does stocking people with terms like “Saskawhiners”. What a derogatory sidestep of reality! “Saskawinners” is just another one that galvanizes the stupidity.
He dates himself, his audience and his me-first views by coming down so hard on Norm for having a blog. Get over it man. Honestly Norm, you do well by this blog, don’t listen to him and people like you are more than welcome in the future!
Talking about the facts… I was trying to buy in Saskatchewan before people were justifying the extortionate prices with commodities. Or anything else! The progression of excuses was just too conspicuously after-the-fact to actually explain anything. So I don’t know why he’s trying to defend such obvious dishonesty.
I turned around and bought in Manitoba which is reported by countless reputable sources recently as “the place to be”. Hydro electricity anybody? What else is new?! Everywhere has a well nurtured stock of disinformation to support why “it’s the best”. That’s because everywhere you go, you have greedy investors and talk radio spin doctors. Yes, Saskatchewan, you got ripped off. It’ll take 10 years before we really see the damage play out, but accountability only lasts about 3 days in this society of sheep. So they’re safe.
Other than that, what else? He reduces it to left/right: I have left-leaning social values because they are what make sense. Present day conservative voters (neo/reform) are misinformed and complacent!
I wouldn’t say it if it wasn’t true, but when half the middle class perceives their views to be aligned with a party who wants to eradicate them, something is amiss.
There’s more to this Earth than taxes and greed, but Canada has become too preoccupied with the *assertion* of success and wealth to remember just how it got there in the first place.
So the lab rats listen to talk radio hosts spewing lies and confusion.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:44 PM
There’s a really funny comic about the Freddie and Fannie bailout – most probably got it in their email.
It’s a working class guy sitting at a poker table with Freddie and Fannie (depicted as people). The dealer is leaning toward the working guy, who has all the chips (Freddie and Fannie are bust at this point), and he says “they’re out of money, so you lose!”.
Privatize profit, socialize losses. Isn’t the “free market” capitalist mentality great!? Anything but a free market now.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:45 PM
Ryan,
That’s good. I saw a story recently in which they were referred to as “Fraudy and Phoney.” Thought that as pretty good.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:45 PM
I may make the ocassional CBC comment!
More exciting than the “same ole’” we’re seeing in Saskatoon’s slow housing market