Milroy Apartments in Saskatoon will become condos
Anger was the dominant emotion at Monday’s city council meeting when the application by Viking Developments to convert Saskatoon’s Milroy Apartments to condos was approved.
Current bylaws require conversion applications which affect more than 100 units be approved by council who have the discretion to deny them if vacancy rates in the area are sufficiently low that tenants may have difficulty finding alternative accommodations. According to CMHC’s recently released “Rental Market Report,” apartment vacancy rates in the immediate vicinity of the Milroy have dropped to 1%, and as low as .6% across the city of Saskatoon.
The Milroy Apartments consist of 156 living units. Viking has promised to retain 40 of the units as rental properties which will be offered to long-term tenants at “market rents.” Like most promises, there is no legal obligation to deliver.
Of course, the fly in the ointment here is the tenants who will be impacted, “many of whom are over 70 years of age and coping with limited mobility and health issues,” according to the Saskatoon Star Phoenix.
In the past, I’ve taken the position that the market should be allowed to work and I appreciate the complexity of the decision that council was faced with. That said, I can’t imagine a worse time to force at least 116 tenants, many of them elderly, to find a new home. We could have justified putting this one off until rental conditions improve.
Perhaps “the market” will grow a conscience and bite Viking in the ass!
Read also: Star Phoenix – Milroy conversion gets OK from city council
Read also: Gerry Klein of the Star Phoenix – Few options for city renters
Read also: CMHC Rental Market Report for 2007, Saskatoon
I’m always happy to answer your Saskatoon real estate questions. All of my contact info is here. Please feel free to call or email.
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Norm Fisher
Royal LePage Saskatoon Real Estate
30 comments so far. We'd love to hear your thoughts.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:47 PM
Perhaps “the market” will grow a conscience and bite Viking in the ass!
Norm, how does Royal Lepage feel about being left out as the marketer of the project? >:)
Let me know if you get the call from H.O.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:47 PM
I think ultimately the market will extract it’s own vengeance by bankrupting some of these condo investors. It may sound unthinkable right now with the vacancy rates so low but economies can turn on a dime. Just look at what’s happened in US real estate over the last year. Add to that an impending recession and the picture gets somewhat bleak.
Everybody seems to think we are protected from a slowdown in the US since we are ‘commodities’ based but have a look at what has been happening to commodity prices in the last few days. If the American economy hits a wall that means less demand for just about everything, globally. Less demand, means less manufacturing, again globally. Less global manufacturing leads to reduced demand for commodities including energy which it seems to me is the main driver of the current boom.
The only thing that really bugs me about it all is it will mainly be the average joe who gets burned when this whole house of cards come crumbling down. Most of these investors are watching the market closely and will be selling out while us hometown folks are still talking about ‘the boom’.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:49 PM
Larry,
I can’t speak to how Royal LePage might feel. I’ll have to review my contract but to the best of my recollection, I don’t believe I sold my feelings to to them.
This forum has always been about reasonable discussions and if you have an argument you’d like to share you’re certainly welcome to make it.
Oh, but Larry, if H.O. does call I will be sure to let you and everyone else here know the outcome.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:50 PM
I just posted on the last thread: I suspect my landlord’s selling my building too, and I only moved in in August.
The problem isn’t just the flooded market — it’s that there is *no* security of tenure for tenants at all. It’s one thing to find a place to rent, but it’s quite another when you may find yourself re-evicted before the year is up.
I’ve lived in Toronto, Vancouver, New York, London and Paris, and all those places had MUCH better checks and balances than Saskabush.
I have a tenure-track job at U of S; I make 83,000 bucks a year doing work I love and I happily moved to this tiny, cold place in order to take the job. But this nonsense is getting insulting.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:50 PM
I live in the Milroy apartments and I’ll definitely have to find a new place to live.
It’s unfortunate but the upside is that we’ve had a lot of warning about this – I first received a letter from Viking about the potential for the conversion in August. That’s given me a lot of time to consider my options, but many of the tenants here seem to have spent their time trying to fight the inevitable instead of preparing to adapt. Not a valuable use of time in my opinion, but I am far younger than most people here.
I’ve ruled out buying my own property in town as an alternative, for now. There is a small chance that the converted apartments will be available at a discount to current tenants, but I doubt it will be significant if anything at all. Considering the suite I’m in – 1100 sqft 2 br on one of the top floors – I expect the condo it turns into to be quite pricey.
All-in-all an unfortunate turn of events for tenants of the Milroy, and Saskatoon renters as a whole, and while I think it was a mistake I also think there is little excuse to be unprepared to move on.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:51 PM
Hey Norm,
No argument! I actually think they made a mistake. If anything the building should have been made nicer for the old folks. Throw in a hot tub to soak those cold days away and make the arthritis a bit easier to deal with.
I wonder where all of the baby boomers are going to go. Pensions that enough to live in expensive senior centers. I don’t think so. We’ll all be buying in Lac LaRonge.
As for R Lepage, I’d expect you’ll get a letter but, I’ve been wrong before.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:52 PM
Larry,
I wondered if I was hearing from the head Viking.
We’ve had many discussions regarding condo conversions on this blog. I have pretty consistently taken the position that people should be free to buy and sell their real estate, as they see fit, and without government interference. I also acknowledge that this is a complex issue requiring consideration from many different angles. For instance, that building is not in the best of shape and renovations would be a big benefit.
My point, really, is that public perception can bring consequences. Most people see the elderly as the most vulnerable among us and I think that this massive displacement, at a time when conditions are so poor has the potential to back fire on everyone that touches it, including the developer. It’s no big secret that market changes have been particularly tough on renters and poor people are being chewed up and spit out on a daily basis. Shelters are exploding at the seams. My younger sister, who is team leader at the YWCA Crisis Shelter, tells me that people (families) are sleeping in their cars because they can’t find an affordable place to live and nobody can take them. Right now, it’s hard not to feel that some of these tenants are headed for difficult times, in what is supposed to be their golden years.
Again, I don’t speak for Royal LePage but personally, I would not want to be the public face that is forever attached to the project. I suspect that whoever takes the job will suffer the stigma of being known as the company that gave a bunch of old folks the bum’s rush. I will not be applying for the job.
When I first heard of this conversion application, I actually suggested to my wife that we should perhaps consider buying one. I am most likely destined for the condo lifestyle at some point in the future and I can see that this building could make a nice home. Knowing what I know now, I don’t think that I could feel good about buying one and I do wonder if some of “the market” might have similar misgivings.
I do hope that you’re wrong about the “letter” as I have tremendous respect for the brand which I represent. The founder of the company, Albert E. LePage always took pride in operating with high ethical standards. People mattered to him. Today, great efforts are being made within the company to promote and support the Royal LePage Shelter Foundation which strives to provide a safe place for the displaced in our communities. My heart would be broken if someone at the top of the corporate ladder tried to prevent me from sharing what’s on it, and I’m afraid I would have to find a new home to hang my license.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:52 PM
Screwed,
Sorry to hear that you’re affected but I’m sure that your good attitude will land you in another deceny home.
I also appreciate your point about the lengthy period of notice. Many other developers have looked for loopholes to beat the rules and I suppose Viking should receive some credit for being forthright about their intentions.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:52 PM
Thanks Norm. You’ve really been on the side of right on this one and your words here are pretty important right now.
J.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:53 PM
Screwed, my symapathy goes out to you and the other residents on the issues you’re facing. If you’re able to, I’d appreciate some more comments from you in the future on how the residents are handling things.
Our rental situation is getting downright scary and I hope council starts doing something proactive to address the shortage. They have the capability to allocate land and work with developers and they should be developing a plan to improve things. All too often municipalities just sit on their hands though and I hope public pressure mounts so they actually decide to plan something proactive.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:55 PM
Isn’t that strange, I had a dream about Viking Developments building me a house last night! LoL I didn’t even realize they were responsible for these condo conversions, I guess I must have heard about it and forgotten, but my subconscious remembered.
I’m no expert, but it seems to me a dangerous investment to accept this project AFTER the big boom of 2007, and knowing the US is experiencing turmoil, and seeing that our condo market has cooled considerably…
Screwed McDuck,
You do have a good attitude. I agree, it’s good that adequate notice has been given to the tennants, and that everyone is responsible for their own accomodations. But I do think it was good of the tennants to try to stand up and protest this conversion. Not only is it a HUGE inconvenience for some – considering Saskatoon’s vacancy rate and most of the residents being seniors, but also I think with everything considered it was unethical of the city to approve this project.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:56 PM
Norm,
We are at a time when far too many seniors are being treated in this manor. I’m not certain who should be chastised for this lack of concern, governments, business or us as individuals. Who will be the first to stand up and shout?
Does anybody really care? Looking at brochures for the elderly portrays contented folks sitting or walking in some pastoral garden. Sheeesh! The reality is so very different for so many. They are lonely, confused and for many – broke.
Removing yet another secure haven for these people just doesn’t make sense. I’m not sure what city council was thinking but it would be a very good time for them to reverse their decision to allow this development. I’m sure there is precident! And if there isn’t – create one.
As an alternative, the City boys and girls might have considered a tradeoff. Here’s my suggestion for “sharing-the-love”.
You – Mr. Developer, get to develop this parcel in the core of the city but, as a price for our vote you must replace in proportion these residences on our city land reserve. We’ll provide the dirt and the service infrastructure for free. Oh and to sweeten the pot, we’ll give you a tax break or some other incentive.
Off the wall? Perhaps, but in our great country we really need to find and apply solutions where everyone wins. The developer, the government bodies, you, me and the seniors. Come on – this is not rocket science. It’s possible if everybody plays.
As an cup half full after thought. Wouldn’t it be ironic if the developer, and city council ended up retired in a place like Milroy and the new young turks of the day gave them notice. Ouch!
Finally Norm, just to be cheeky – wouldn’t be ironic if R.Lepage sent you a atta-boy letter. Much better idea, I think. Off to the store to find my Viking helmut. :>)
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:56 PM
I can’t wait until this city takes a nose dive. It’s completely unnafordable for someone like me who’s 29 and gets around $43,00 a year salary (before taxes). One pretty much has to marry someone just to pay for a mortgage on a 1 bedroom condo. I’m being booted out of my own apartment in the spring, and the big panic is setting in about where in this city i will be able to afford to live.
I just laugh at how this city, as least apartment wise, is pretty on par with Vancouver, Victoria, etc..at least on boardwalks site.
So for now since i have no other choice but to rent, and hope i can afford it if it climbs again in the summer and hope hope hope the market crashes here or i’ll be forced to move to somewhere affordable.
ugh.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:57 PM
Jesse
Sad but true.
It’s not pretty for a lot of folks in Vancouver. Typical ‘clean’ basement suite = $1000 a month. You may also have to pay a share of services. Add transportation, food, and our contributions to our silent partner in Ottawa to that budget and it doesn’t leave much. Certainly no entertainment money to feed the pigeons in Stanley Park.
Now think as if you were a senior and made less than half of that on CPP, OAS and the supplement and were given notice to vacate – Bleak!
There is always hope when you wake up and don’t see daisy roots. Admittedly, some days are just not pretty.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:58 PM
Ashley,
My brother (31) is pretty much in the same boat you are. He’ll be kicked out of his apartment as soon as it sells as a condo, his whole building is being converted. (but no renos are being done)
My husband and I are renting an apartment for now until we either get a house built, or come across a resale home that is “reasonably” priced. I’d be really angry if I found out our place was being converted because we already had to move last year for that reason. I do feel really bad for my brother, and you, and other singletons who will have a terrible time affording a condo. All we can do is wait and see if things cool down. I’ve noticed that the market is somewhat flooded with condos as is, and there’s not a lot selling. I see a more positive outlook in condo affordability in the near future than I do for houses. There’s only 2 things a speculator can do with a condo that’s not selling: 1)Reduce the price 2)Rent it out. So if this continues we’ll either see prices recede, or the vacancy rate will improve! ;’)
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:58 PM
I as well as McDuck live in The Milroy. As he/she said we did receive quite a bit of notice on this. It is unfortunate to all of us to try and find another home at this time but as long as Viking keeps their word we don’t have to vacate until Sept 2009 (2 years notice).
Viking also is offering 40 suites to the residents of the building that have been there 5+ years. These leases can be exited by the renter with 30 days notice. The rent is to be determined by a committee mostly made up of residents. If it can’t be agreed, an outside person will determine fair rent based on other downtown rents.
I’ve heard lots of “The Milroy is mostly seniors” with numbers as high as 80% seniors. Not to be insensitive but I seriously doubt it’s that high. I’ve been there for almost 3 yrs and I certainly agree that there are plenty of seniors but I’d have to see the factual numbers to believe it. I think these numbers might have a bit of enhancement to make a good story.
The other thing to consider is if this application was denied and Viking reapplied for conversion it would fall under the new rules and they’d only have to provide 6 months notice. So if they would’ve got approval in say July, we would have had to be out by the end of the year.
I do feel bad for the older and less fortunate residents of The Milroy but as a renter isn’t there some kind of risks to deal with such as rent increases, living next to a loud resident, sharing laundry, condo conversion that come with renting??
Not saying I’m looking forward to moving but the story I’m seeing on TV and in the paper is a little bit skewed.
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:00 PM
Remember what I said last year? boom in house market is not a good thing for our city. We need more jobs, good money but not high house price. we’ll see what will happen 2008.
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:00 PM
A lot of this information is a shocking enhancement to the activity we saw last year. Now that the process of generating profits is in place, people are just stepping up to the crank.
Many people who own homes in Saskatoon who I worked with were at best disinterested in the situation being forced onto renters.
I think there you will find the biggest snag.
Homeowners – by far a huge portion of the voter base just don’t feel impacted by this. When you mix that with aforementioned “go along to get along” conflict averse personalities – well – you get an impasse for those affected. There is no goodwill anymore, not even the risk-free variety.
Because of that, these decisions cannot be made solely on a municipal basis because it creates an imbalance in consideration. You pit the owners versus the not-owners.
Renting should never be your only choice, an alternative, a stop-gap or any other moderate and innocuous inconvenience. These terms are easier said than experienced and don’t depict the hardship they impose.
In a system where people can end up paying in rent what a bank would never approve them for in a mortgage, Canada is robbing people and itself of a future.
The free market should not apply at present and needs to be regulated because those with money are making the decisions at all costs to those without or with less.
This means higher wages, this means freezes in industries across the board until we can get this finger-pointing inflation untangled.
I’m sure if we followed the start of this yarn to the end, we’d soon discover that there is a recursion to it.
I can’t stand seeing fellow Canadians losing out like this, it’s breaking my heart.
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:01 PM
Governments should consider lowering property and income taxes on rental properties. This would encourage inverstors to hold and build rental properties.
The lack of tradespeople is another reason our housing supply is down. Goverment should make it easier for out of country tradespeople to obtain work permits. If the US housing market is so bad, why not let American’s come up here to build homes.
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:02 PM
I’ve heard from people close to it that the builders aren’t in nearly as dire a situation as is implied.
Again – I find that greed and the veil of private operations is driving a lot of unfounded cost increases – which consequently aren’t passed down to the employees.
If anything, the government should start asking private businesses everywhere why all of a sudden they see a need to drive prices up and what exactly has triggered this.
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:06 PM
Thanks everyone! I really appreciate your contribution to this discussion.
Larry, your idea of council bargaining with a developer hadn’t even occurred to me, but it’s a very good one. We’re not used to this kind of activity in Saskatoon.
In the past, condo conversions haven’t been a big deal.
Chris and Screwed, it was good to hear from some Milroy tenants. Thanks for raising some very good points. I suppose that we can give Viking some credit for actually following the rules. There have been too many examples of companies bending the rules for their own benefit. I do appreciate that these people have a lengthy period to make other plans. Kabo also deserves some credit for providing pretty affordable rentals over a number of years. My biggest concern is the bouncing about that many renters are experiencing. Out of the twenty comments in this thread, we have a few people who are moving more than once to accommodate conversions. We are at an age where that’s nothing more than a major inconvenience. When we’re pushing 75 or 80, it can be deadly. Let’s hope that the affected seniors can find a comfortable home where they can once again settle in.
I said it last year, I don’t remember you saying that last year, but then, I’ll bet your name wasn’t “I said it last year,” last year.
Charles, Yes! Something needs to be done to encourage a few significant new builds. I also like Larry’s idea on this.
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:06 PM
Alex,
When you have some time check this out
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5420753830426590918&q=Aaron+Russo&total=612&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
It’s over an hour long, but if you watch the whole thing it’s quite enlightening to why it is the way it is.
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:06 PM
Norm,
Run for council and put those fabulous well tested negotiation skills you use as a Realtor to work for the people of Saskatoon. I just know you will win if you wear a Viking hat. :>)
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:07 PM
Larry,
I don’t think I could do that. Couldn’t take the heat.
Besides, I have promised my wife that I’ll never run for any government office. But a Viking hat? Hmmm. Maybe.
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:07 PM
A bit off topic but I ran accross this 5-min video on how the credit crisis has effected the housing sector in the U.S. Some of you may find this interesting:
http://www.wellcomemat.com/video/38BAC1820B
In the video its pretty easy to see how demand got overinflated during the past 5 years and now how its contracted and they’re in a situation of oversupply. I believe this is one of the reasons its good that Canada has a much stronger banking sector than the U.S. does.
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:08 PM
Doug,
In his videos he neglects to say people going over their head in equity and 35 year morgages.LOL
Hey lets buy a house for 5 times its actual value or we will never own a home.Hurry,hurry.hurry.LOL
Boy I have a car to sell you!!!!!!!!!
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:09 PM
Thanks Doug,
That’s a pretty simple explanation of what went wrong in the mortgage business. It’s too bad that the lenders were so short sighted. I’ll bet the costs have far exceeded the gains.
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:09 PM
Norm,
A number of companies are going into recievership. Some have are going to have to right off lots of bad debt and I think we’re going to see a low point for the american financial sector.
For homeowners its as bad or worse. Still, it doesn’t take much to reason that this is a temporary adjustment based on poor lending practices. I’d think that within a couple of years that the market will recover and whoever manages the storm (banks and homeowners) will be fine.
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:10 PM
Hi Doug,
Yes, it’s bit of a scary time. Hopefully, the markets will recover.
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:10 PM
I hope the markets recover in such a way that the middle class is restored before it’s pre-opportunistic boom.
No wonder things are crashing. The money has been sucked out of almost an entire class. This reduces the amount of money people have to spend on say – things that drive the economy.
Ever wonder why every time a store closes down, a dollar store fills the space?