RBC predicts solid economic growth for Saskatchewan in 2007 and 2008
In a report titled, “Migration Drives Saskatchewan Housing Market and Economy,” RBC is predicting that Saskatchewan’s economy will grow by 4% in 2007, and 3.6% in 2008, outpacing the Canadian economy and all but two other provinces.
“After ten years of declining population, the province is enjoying its largest migration surge in 25 years,” said Craig Wright, vice-president and chief economist, RBC. “It has sparked a sudden housing boom that can be seen by increased construction activity, a massive pop in house prices particularly in Saskatoon, and a lift to consumer spending.”
The report also says, “caution is warranted regarding the sustainability of house prices” noting that it’s far too early to call this migration shift permanent.
Read the RBC Economic and Financial Market Outlook here
Read the short report for Saskatchewan
I’m always happy to answer your Saskatoon real estate questions. All of my contact info is here. Please feel free to call or email.
Follow our daily updates on Twitter @SaskatoonHomes.
Norm Fisher
Royal LePage Saskatoon Real Estate
84 comments so far. We'd love to hear your thoughts.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:31 AM
Alberta boom was because of the good job oppurtunity but Saskatoon boom is not because of the employment oppurtunity so this hosunig price is not affordable even for the professional job holders, and this market won’t sustain.I request to buyers not to panic and bid because it is not worth.Real estate agents just try to make all of you panic and force you to bid.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:32 AM
Thank you Sanna for your insight.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:32 AM
I don’t have any questions. I just stopped by to say hello and to comment on what a wonderful blog you have here. Hope you are having a great week.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:32 AM
Teresa, and that’s exactly why you remain one of my best blogging friends even though we haven’t had a chance to chat in a long while. Thanks for all of your encouragement. It means a lot to me coming from someone who is so well respected.
I am having a great week, but then, the week is very young.
Hope you are well too.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:33 AM
Sanna, I have to say that the real estate agent I used, Debbie Stevenson (Royal LePage) did not in the least “force” me to bid. Quite the opposite as a matter of fact. I personally know a few realtors and none of them are taking advantage of the market and causing people to panic.
When I purchased in February I needed a home. My relationship had just ended and my ex wanted to keep the home and buy me out. I didn’t have a choice but to buy something regardless of the market. I never felt pressured at all and I think most realtors are frustrated themselves. I’ve no doubt there are a few bad apples in the bunch who are taking advantage of the situation, but I wouldn’t say it is pervasive.
I would say that if someone is feeling pressured they need to change realtors.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:33 AM
Thanks for the input Carrie.
It does all boil down to supply and demand. There’s a very limited supply of good properties and many people, like yourself, who “need” a home for one reason or another.
The best agents often don’t know what to tell their buyers as to “how much” to offer. This was a fairly easy question to answer at one point. Not so much anymore. All we can do is educate the buyer on what’s happening in the market, show them the most recent sales of similar homes and let them make the call.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:34 AM
Some people have conspiracy theories and blame agents for creating the hype that drives up prices. While it’s easy to find a scapegoat when you’re frustrated and upset, you really can’t fault any one person or group for the current market conditions.
We certainly never felt forced to bid by the agent who helped us find a house. She showed us comparable properties in the area, and the prices at which they were listed and actually sold for. She left it up to us to come up with a bid and conditions we felt comfortable with. We were not successful the first time, but we learned a lot and did succeed the next time.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:34 AM
I don’t think the agents are directly to blame. Yeah, they make a hefty commission in the end, and I’m sure these increased prices are just dandy by them.
Although personally I would only sense from agents the exact same behaviour they would show in a down market.
I blame the blind people buying houses, both foolish locals who think a futureless month-to-month lifestyle of debt is acceptable and also the Albertans and BCers strip-mining Saskatchewan.
After that, I blame the governments for not realizing what’s going on and at least slowing things down to allow for other decisions to be made.
I sometimes wonder if there is an economic “purification” going on in Saskatchewan? As if those of us who can’t afford homes aren’t welcome and the lack of decisive action is fully deliberate.
A very convenient barrier to entry has been made that cannot be directly addressed without discriminating between someone from the West and someone already here.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:35 AM
Alex, there is no economic purification going on, but economics are certainly a facotr. Housing prices were cheap in Saskatoon, there is a HUGE resource boom going on right now which ultimately may benefit the province, outside investors took advantage of the discrepancy. Really anything else is just foolishness. Do you think there is some secret society that is going out and buying up houses to force a price increase? You’re out of your mind.
I got news for you, prices are up all over the west. That is a pretty big conspiracy. Before us, prices went up all over the US. However, the US just had low interest rates fueling the fire, we have resources.
Really, you need to study what is going on in the resource sector. It is just so huge and I don’t think most locals have any idea. Oil has gone from a low of $13 a barrel in 98, to $68 or so today. Given our vast reserves that puts us in a pretty good spot. The ethanol initiatives in the states are causing grain prices to spike, in some cases double, year over year. Guess what, Sask has massive quantities of farmland and for cheap too. Uranium, potash, zinc, copper, you name it, if people dig it out of the ground, it’s price is through the roof.
There are some very basic forces behind this, you do yourself a disservice by not focusing on them.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:35 AM
Alex, you are living in a dream world.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:35 AM
Sam,
Great comment. Saskatchewan has been sucking the hind one for so long we harldy know how to recognize a positive future. Everywhere I turn I hear good news about the economy and predictions are indeed bright for the next couple of years.
Thanks for adding your perspective and thanks for reading. I hope to hear your voice more often in the future. I could use a little more good news on my blog.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:36 AM
sdude,
“Alex, you are living in a dream world.”
Unfortunately, it’s not a good dream either.
Nice to see you again. So, I need to know. Did you actually buy another property or are you just watching from the sidelines? I would love to know what someone with a little real estate in his portfolio is thinking right now. Is this bull run over for now? Is Ozzie still high on Saskatoon?
April 7th, 2009 at 11:36 AM
sdude, I resent what you said and I think it epitomizes exactly the mentality I define.
Thank you.
I’m not living in a dream, I know who’s being hurt by this.
I think accusing me of being paranoid is a very slimy thing to do as to this point nobody has really denied what I’ve said. Only called me crazy. Well, that’s good – but I bring practical facts & reality to the table.
So far, the only excuses I’ve heard is a lot of “potential for this and that”. Garbage to fuel the putrid fire.
All I see here is a powwow of the rich and greedy.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Alex, what are you talking about potential? Grain prices are high now, right now, immediately, go look them up. Investors in New York are talking about the tar sands, I’ve even seen it on CNBC. Everything I talked about in my last post, which by the way you never addressed in any fashion, was based on fact.
Counter the facts with facts if that is your game, don’t just throw out wild accusations.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Alex, I’m neither rich nor lazy and I still was able to buy a house. I admit that it is daunting for first time homebuyers out there but you should still be able to buy a home, even if it isn’t in your first choice area. The stats that were posted on here show that the affordability index is still better in Saskatoon that many other areas.
If you are still having problems making ends meet and can’t see your way clear to buying a place, maybe you need to look at upgrading your skills to get a better job. There are so many opportunities right now, be they in professional or in trades that you should be able to get a better job to afford a better house. Will it be easy? No. But no one just hands you a hunk of cash or a house without having to work for it.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:39 AM
Murray Lyons wrote an interesting story for today’s Star Phoenix titled, “Commodity prices help good times roll” which basically backs up what Sam said yesterday. See it here.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:40 AM
Sam:
Fact – I can’t afford a house. No fancydancing or elaborate bank product is going to justify the prices I’d have to pay. Remember, I wouldn’t be buying it to turn a quick buck, I’d actually want a stable run with it.
So, I choose not be house poor. But that doesn’t make my choice in turn dignify what’s going on. Think hard about that.
Todd:
Fact – I have skills, qualifications etc, but the employers are unwilling to pay accordingly because they can just as easily get equity-rich immigrants from further West to work for the same low price.
Think hard about that one. I got more than enough training & skills to fend off your attempts at assuming who I am.
The opportunities are not there, I know countless people who are forced to work at a fraction of their potential with training from university because there’s no opportunities in this province for regular people.
The only opportunities are tied to construction & manual labor. As in boom-related.
Which, in contrast to your point requires very little qualifications. Get your facts straight, put yourself in other peoples’ shoes.
Just because some people posting here are sitting pretty doesn’t mean everyone else is.
On your point of buying a house – thanks but no thanks. You’d be a fool to buy a house in this market, they aren’t worth it. Or at least only are to said fools.
You’ll be tied to it indefinitely and the “starter home” isn’t a good deal for a lifetime of debt. Ever thought ahead? Likely not, because that’s what’s fueling this craze: a lack of foresight.
I find it funny that everyone here espouses the virtues of compromise yet themselves would never choose to live in the areas they force other to believe they must suffer.
Lots of double standards, and again…I won’t accept analysis because it only gives an opportunity to sidestep the reality of the situation:
I – and many others like me – can’t afford a home in this mayhem.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:41 AM
No, I haven’t bought anything in Saskatoon since the bull run – I strictly want cash flow. I bought in Merritt BC, got a nice 2-bdrm condo in January, now we’re looking in Lloydminster and Northern BC.
Well Ozzie thinks it’s still a good flipper’s market, but that’s not my thing. http://www.OzzieJurock.com – if you want to know more about the man. Don’t read this Alex: one of his proteges made a million bucks flipping contracts last year, having never owned a single one of them.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:41 AM
Alex, if it is so bad here, I suggest you go to where you can afford your dream home and are paid better wages. And if you find that place, please let us know so the rest of us can follow.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:41 AM
Just to note as a first time home buyer I haven’t heard back from 2 agents i went to. Is this because I don’t have 450,000 to throw down or is it first come first serve type thing?
April 7th, 2009 at 11:42 AM
I agree with alex on the trades not being paid well enough. And instead of paying there guys more $$ and moving the lower people up the ladder they rather hire guys from the far East or West if you know what i mean? I’m a welder and I wish I got paid Alberta style. All in all wages have to go up all around, I don’t think it’ll be soon but employers have to see the big picture. A guy can’t live off peanuts.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:42 AM
Alex,
I’m sorry to say it, but man, you have one tough attitude. The whole world is just crapping on you and there’s not a damned thing that you can do about it.
For several weeks you’ve been bitching and moaning about how awful things are for you. Can’t afford a home, no taxable income, blah, blah, blah. You haven’t even made a single suggestion on what could be done to improve things for people like yourself, except “gimme more” and “fix it for me.” Why don’t you focus a little energy on trying to figure out what you can do to help yourself? You seem intelligent enough that you could find some way to improve your prospects. Todd is right. Nobody is going to throw a gob of money at you. If you can’t figure out a way to fix it, then what you see is what you get, probably forever.
Good luck.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:42 AM
sdude, I hear Lloyd is nuts as well. My sister and her husband are trying to make a move there and decided to rent something until they get settled in the community. Apparently, they found a rental which the landlord was “accepting bids” on.
There has been a fair bit of flipping going on. In this province, you can’t re-list a property until you have title to it so that makes it more of a challenge for some, especially from a distance.
One of these days, I’m going to do a little research to pick out the properties which have been sold multiple times. I think there may be some interesting stories there.
Good luck.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:43 AM
Glen,
The average price in this area is still a little under $250,000 so there is lots of sale activity way below $450,000. Sales commissions decline substantially as prices increase and there’s not a lot of incentive to avoid selling lower priced homes.
I suspect it’s more the fact that agents have way too much coming at them. I’ll bet I get approached 20 times a week by various buyers, either by phone or by email. If there were 5 times as many hours in a day I couldn’t possibly help them all. However, if an agent is feeling that way they should say so and not lead you to believe that they’re working for you.
You are probably shopping in a very tough price range and finding you something will be a tough job for any agent. It’s likely the kind of place that does draw numerous offers so even if they find you something, helping you buy it may be a bit of a long shot.
Are your objectives realistic? “I’d like to buy a three bedroom house within walking distance to the U of S that doesn’t need any work for up to $200,000, and by the way, it has to have a garage” will get agents running in the other direction. Something to think about.
I’m not in a position to help you myself right now but I’d be happy to connect you with someone good who will do some work for you. Let me know if you’re interested (241-6676) or you can contact me by email at http://www.teamfisher.com/Contact_Us/page_1725291.html
Best wishes for success!
April 7th, 2009 at 11:43 AM
I Agree on Some, Hopefully we’ll start to see some decent income growth. I know some people who employ trades people and they do seem to recognize that incomes have to go up. They’re being told that every day. They’ve got a ton of work booked. They just need to be convinced that business will remain strong for some time. The economy has been slow for so long that they are scared to take a big hit only to see it slow down.
I would also think that there would be tremendous opportunities for trades people to go out on their own. It takes frickin’ forever to get anyone to do something for you. Consumers are in the mood to pay to have it done next week, or even next month.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:44 AM
“You haven’t even made a single suggestion on what could be done to improve things for people like yourself, except “gimme more” and “fix it for me.”"
Well, I did. But those were tarred and feathered as well. I’m making the point visible, because all I see here is the promotion of debt.
I’m sorry if it offends the “haves”, but us “have nots” tend to struggle when it comes to options. You think I would be trying to demonstrate the point if I did have options? Surely your assumption of my intelligence at this point would allow for that.
The issue is still present no matter what anyone does. Well, unless you know an easy way to make an extra $1000 a month? All you’ve done is suggest I make more money, well bravo but that’s just the same as me asking for help or lower prices.
It’s not bitching and moaning, if that’s what you want to call it – I guess that’s your choice. Although I think you’re just trying to use political-speak to make me look like the ignorant one.
What’s the next argument? “People who don’t own houses simply don’t want to.”
We’ll be the next breed of homeless! It’ll be a lifestyle choice by forced theory.
I find the stance that we were the ones to get ourselves into this mess offensive. Your fortune is the silver lining to mine and many others’ cloud.
It seems like speaking out honestly about this situation bums people out enough to make them upset.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:44 AM
Alex, the best thing you can do is write to your MLA and voice your concerns.
I was actually kinda dissapointed in the residents of Saskatoon when John Gormley brought up the topic of our provincial government’s plans to help young people cope with the rising housing costs. Every one of the callers told Gormley that the young people should “suck it up”, and that if they could afford houses when they were younger, than there is no reason why todays young shouldn’t be able to do the same thing. One particularily “sympathetic” caller even suggested that the government provide young people with a maid to wipe their bottoms and a personal butler service.
Frankly I am still surprised that this “boom” has continued as long as it has, especially as there has been little change in income levels to sustain things. As a business owner myself, I look around and see the local economy pretty much where it was last year, save for the huge increase in housing costs. As such, I made the call this spring to raise my rates to compensate for this huge jump, and found that many clients were somewhat uneasy by even the slight increase, as they didn’t understand the justification behind the increase. This is the problem us young people have. These same people who criticise us young people for not being to able to afford a house, are often also the same people who take issue with us earning wages more suited to our so called “booming” economy. It’s frustrating. They have their wealth, but sometimes it feels like they don’t want anyone else to enjoy the same prosperity. My work around for this has been to focus my business attention to the Alberta and US markets, where they don’t seem to take issue with paying fair value for my services, in many circumstances considering the rates a bargain.
I also have to wonder how many people who are getting in to he market right now are doing so out of panic, but are stretched so far financially that the slightest interest hike could create a number of home foreclosures. This would be truly tragic, and devastating for Saskatoon.
So what can be done? I don’t think any sort of subsidies are the answer, as I feel any sort of government intervention into a free market can do more damage than help. I do have a couple of ideas, though, that I think could help some young people out without interfering directly in the housing market. First off, I know first hand that one of the biggest hurdles a young college / university graduate faces when trying to get pre-approved for a mortgage is the debt from student loans hanging over their head. Using the current debt / income ratios, this severely limits the buying power a young person has, and in many situations, unless they have someone able to go into a joint mortgage with them, they are shut out of the market all together. My suggestion is that the provincial government could look into working with the lending institutions and the provincial student loans department and explore the possibility of some sort of debt reduction should the person agree to stay and work in the province for said amount of time. For individuals sitting on the fence trying to decide whether to stay in the province, or move elsewhere in search of more competitive wages, this may sway them to remain in the provice. While this would cost the province initially, it would encourage young people to put their roots in Saskatchewan, and it would be an investment in the long term prosperity of the province. The initial cost of helping ease the student loan debt would be made up for in the long term by the persons contributions to the provincial / local enconomy and tax base. With many of the boomers nearing retirement, we need to come up with solutions to keep as many of the young bright minds in the province with some sort of incentives like this, instead of driving them out with out of control housing markets like we are experiencing now.
Anywhoo – hope you all have a great Canada weekend, and Norm, once again thanks for your excellent blog site.
Cheers,
Jason
April 7th, 2009 at 11:45 AM
My husband and I are real estate junkies. We’ve been interested in the market for years and have paid attention pricing as closely as possible in hopes of making it work for us.
We bought our first home 5 years ago, for about half what the average market value was, because that’s all we could afford. The first realtor we talked to laughed us out of her office. The second spent six months (!!) helping us find the perfect beater of a house for the hefty (for us) price tag of 80k. We bargained the seller down.
We sacrificed size, neighbourhood and condition to get into the market as we were students, with meager incomes. That’s relevant because it is entirely comparable to what first time buyers are looking at now. We had nowhere near the average amount a first time buyer comes into the market with. We did what we had to do to get into the market, and certainly it meant scrimping and saving, but our priorities lay with home ownership.
I’ve heard so much moaning and groaning from people about the lack of affordable housing, how houses aren’t worth anywhere near what they are going for and how “some one” should step in. I can’t help but wonder how many of these same people were actively looking for a house prior to the boom? Or is the market being complained about purely because there is something to complain about?
I think it’s is scary and intimidating trying to get into a fast paced market, but I also think that people are often unrealistic about what they are looking for. I’m not sure that everyone is entitled to 3 bedrooms, 2.5 baths and an attached garage in great neighbourhood as a starter home. In fact, I think that this sense of entitlement is a large part of the problem.
Our housing market was, and still is, dramatically below national averages. Everything else aside, it was eventually going to go up. Houses are worth what people will pay for them, and it’s rather naive to suggest that sellers should accept less than market value or that those who can afford houses shouldn’t buy them. That’s just not the way the world works, I’m afraid.
Things will balance out. Wages will rise as the economy heats up. We have a ton of really good prospects between our biotech industry, mining and still affordable housing and commercial space.
But I don’t think that the complaining and self pity are likely to bring down prices. It may, however, waste enough of one’s time that their own opportunity will just pass them by.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:45 AM
Rebecca, in the short-term houses are worth what people will pay for them. Long-term, they are worth land + building cost – deficiencies. Things will balance out long-term, but equilibrium may be downwards. All of the comparison points, Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto, Vancouver are much larger cities where land is legitimately scarce. That just isn’t our situation here. If you were really a real-estate junkie I would expect you to realize that.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:46 AM
1. I was not looking before the insanity set in.
2. An 80k mortgage is perfectly acceptable to me, even back in the 90s! At least it translated to an affordable monthly payment.
3. What makes you think I or others like me would want so much? Even the papers talk about how a dump is vastly overpriced.
Instead of making blanket statements about people who are getting gutted by recent trends, have a look at what they truly can and cannot do. Stop comparing yourself to others to prove the point…
Are we you? No, too bad for us – I know. But it’s a pure injustice the kind of misinformation and apathy that is getting thrown around over this.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:46 AM
Alex, please, tell me one thing that I can do for you today which will help your situation.
Rebecca, thanks for sharing your experiences. It’s always great to hear stories like yours. Home ownership is ultimately that much sweeter for those who work hard to attain it.
SomethingDoesntAddUp, houses will always be worth what someone is willing to pay. We do have lots of land in Saskatchewan but people are only interested in living on serviced land. Unless they start giving it away, an abundance of land is not likely to have a negative impact on resale values.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:46 AM
Alex, the best thing you can do is write to your MLA and voice your concerns.
I was actually kinda dissapointed in the residents of Saskatoon when John Gormley brought up the topic of our provincial government’s plans to help young people cope with the rising housing costs. Every one of the callers told Gormley that the young people should “suck it up”, and that if they could afford houses when they were younger, than there is no reason why todays younger professionals shouldn’t be able to do the same thing. One particularily “sympathetic” caller even suggested that the government provide young people with a maid to wipe their bottoms and a personal butler service.
Frankly I am still surprised that this “boom” has continued as long as it has, especially as there has been little change in income levels to sustain things. As a business owner myself, I look around and see the local economy pretty much where it was last year, save for the huge increase in housing costs. As such, I made the call this spring to raise my rates to help compensate for this huge jump, and found that many clients were somewhat uneasy by even the slight increase, as they didn’t understand the justification behind the rate change. This is the problem us young people have. These same people who criticise us young folk for not being to able to afford a house, are often also the same people who take issue with us earning wages more suited to our so called “booming” economy. It’s frustrating. They have their wealth, but sometimes it feels like they don’t want anyone else to enjoy the same prosperity they enjoy. My work around for this has been to focus my business attention to the Alberta and US markets, where they don’t seem to take issue with paying fair value for my services, in many circumstances considering the rates a bargain.
I also have to wonder how many people who are getting into the market right now are doing so out of panic, but are stretched so far financially that the slightest interest hike could create a number of home foreclosures. This would be truly tragic, and devastating for Saskatoon.
So what can be done? I don’t think subsidies are the answer, as I feel any sort of government intervention into a free market can do more damage than help. I do have a couple of ideas, though, that I think could help some young people out without interfering directly in the housing market. First off, I know first hand that one of the biggest hurdles a young college / university graduate faces when trying to get pre-approved for a mortgage is the debt from student loans hanging over their head. Using the current debt / income ratios in place by CMHC, this severely limits the buying power a first time graduate has, and in many situations, unless they have someone able to go into a joint mortgage with them, they are shut out of the market all together. My suggestion is that the provincial government could look into working with the lending institutions and the provincial student loans department and explore the possibility of some sort of debt reduction should the person agree to stay and work in the province for said amount of time. For individuals sitting on the fence trying to decide whether to stay in the province, or move elsewhere in search of more competitive wages, this may sway them to remain in the provice. While this would cost the province initially, it would encourage young people to put their roots in Saskatchewan, and it would be an investment in the long term prosperity of the province. The initial cost of helping ease the student loan debt would be made up in the long term by the persons contributions to the provincial / local enconomy and tax base. With many of the boomers nearing retirement, we need to come up with solutions to keep as many of the young bright minds in the province with some sort of incentives like this, instead of driving them out with out of control housing markets like we are experiencing now.
Anywhoo – hope you all have a great Canada weekend, and Norm, once again thanks for your excellent blog site.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:47 AM
Alex, you never answered my question. Where is it better and more affordable?
April 7th, 2009 at 11:47 AM
Norm, spoken like a true speculator. However, in the long-run, really, lots will be serviced to meet demand for Sask home owners. Ultimately, in fact, at these prices we will have oversupply and there will be a bust. Look at what is happening in the states right now. The homebuilders are getting broken. Negative earnings, inventory write-offs, and there is no end in sight. That is with only the smallest of interest rates too.
Back to the original point, the reason I say prices must be near equal to cost is that it is the most basic economic principle. You see, prices that result in high profits to builders, encourage more building. More building means more competition. More competition ultimately means supply is satisfied. This will unfold over years but rest assured, it will happen. Just basic economic principles my friend.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:48 AM
Jason
MLAs, mayor, ministers, none of them care. Our problem isn’t a problem of theirs – why should they care? Because they got voted in? Hah!
Otherwise…Everything that you said is pretty spot on. The rich, holding onto the money, unwilling to share an economy (good or bad). Greed is 100% at play here and I see a lot of 40+ year old people laughing to the bank.
I don’t think helping students will help the situation however. It’s another indirect measure. As I’ve stated before, the time has come to pinpoint those who already have properties and make them cool off. It’s time to make some opportunities for those of us who don’t have that black hole of equity to expand with.
If it is demand driven, then regulate the demand. The government wouldn’t have to intervene indefinitely, but it would certainly prevent the rich from continuing to blight Saskatoon & other parts of Saskatchewan.
I was in Toronto recently and I spoke with some who are older, more wealthy and further along than myself from BC. They explained it perfectly – as they’re doing it in some smaller towns in Saskatchewan. The rich roll in, create a shortage, and then exploit that shortage like there is no tomorrow. Don’t get me started on how upsetting it was for me to listen, but at least I had my proof.
I don’t think the intention is to keep the young in Saskatchewan. Like I said in a prior comment, I think there’s a purification and a gentrification of the highest most impossible standards going on.
I fear at this point that it is too late for any action. The benefits of living in Saskatoon and what it used to be are starting to deplete. The city is slowly becoming Albertized. This is not the same Saskatoon I lived in since 2004 even. In only three years, this city and the attitudes of people that live in it have gone downhill. It’s become much less friendly in so many ways…
Todd, what a silly question to ask. I think you know where. Looking for the next big cash-in? Go buy in the arctic, I hear there’s oil up there, yeehaw!
Norm, you’re doing great by having a blog!
I’d even go as far to say that it gets a good deal of readership which is very important.
Although it seems to me that if your majority of commenters were instead of my frame of mind, you’d be just as eager to lay into someone of an opposite opinion. Seems like every time you jump down from the fence (a fine place to be within your own blog, no complaints there), you’re always in favor of the big & rich.
How ridiculous does the situation have to be for the first time home buyers before what they suggest isn’t ridiculous? I don’t call trends these days fair. It’s also not fair to accuse people of having too high of standards, I think many people have had low enough standards to begin with when looking for a house.
If you want to help, ease up on accusing me and anyone in my situation of being in any way crazy. You don’t know how many people I talk to who I say the same things to and their response is “You’re pretty much right.”
Duh my suggestions are extreme! Of course I know that, but you won’t solve a problem by failing to address it. Which I know – touches on one of the worst aspects of politics.
We didn’t make this problem for ourselves, which is the message I sometimes see you sending.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:49 AM
Real estate is what it is, and it costs what it costs. If you are someone that finds it is over priced then that is your perception of reality. It’s not wrong to think that way, just keep in mind that it’s everyones choice on how they perceive a situation. I personally find Saskatoon real estate to be cheap. I just did a search on MLS and there are 100 properties for sale right now under $150,000. That’s a mortgage well under $1000 per month.
I’m not any more intelligent than anyone else on this blog. The only difference is that I’ve chosen to educate myself in a number of things including real estate. For those that have the mind set that “Rich people are greedy” or “I can’t afford a house in this market”, then those are the walls that you have put up around you. If that’s how you think then you will never own a house and you’ll never have money. For “rich people are greedy” and you don’t want to be greedy right?
I’m only 27 and I own multiple properties in Saskatoon. Maybe some of you think that it’s impossible to get in to this market. That you couldn’t get a $200,000 mortgage because the bank won’t approve you. What if I told you that I got financing for $325,000 worth of mortgages 5 days ago. I don’t have a job, my business is less than a year old and I have no proof of any income. The only thing I had in my favor is a good credit score. Would that change your perception?
How many of you would call me crazy if I said that I could get a property for 10% below market value. What if I were to tell some of the nay sayers in here that just last month I picked up a property worth $260,000 for $209,000. Would that change your thinking?
I was taught something a few years ago from a mentor of mine. She told me this back when I was really stuggling with my finances and it applies to everything in life. She said ” What you give to this world is what this world will provide you with in return. ” If you’re putting out the energy that you can’t afford this market, then it shall be so. Instead tell the universe that you are going to buy a house. Set that 1 intention and do the work you need to do in order for that to come in to your life. Also be open to accepting that in to your life. If you do those things I guarantee that you will be a homeowner. You can be a homeowner in 6 months or in 2 weeks. Which ever “time boundaries” you create for your reality.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:49 AM
SomethingDoesn’tAddUp,
I am familiar with the principle of competition, as well as the principle of supply and demand, and the principle of substitution, all of which are relevant here.
I have absolutely no doubt that the potential for “bust” exists in a market which has seen such rapid and substantial change and I have said so several times on this blog. I won’t claim that prices will never go down and at this point I won’t pretend that I have a good handle on when, why or by how much. Real estate, like anything else which is traded is subject to fluctuations, and sometimes outright crashes. I do have my doubts that it will result from an “over supply” of land. Builders don’t control land development policies here; the City of Saskatoon does and with the concerns expressed by the current council regarding “urban sprawl,” and the conservative history of the Saskatoon Land Branch I don’t think it’s realistic to expect a “surplus” anytime soon. I won’t spend too much time worrying about what’s unfolding “over years” as like most people I have my share of problems which require my attention more immediately.
The problems being experienced in the US can largely be attributed to “sub-prime” lending practices which have been all too prevalent in recent years. When you bend over backwards to lend money to people who have proven themselves less than responsible in handling credit you are almost begging for problems. Unfortunately, Canadian lenders have recently been showing a remarkable willingness to follow their American counterparts so I expect that we’ll also eventually see some fallout from that as well.
Speculator? Probably no more than you. I own one piece of real estate; my home. I intend to keep it that way as far as I can see down the road.
Thank you for participating in the discussion. Hope to hear for you again.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:50 AM
Norm,
Well now we are getting somewhere. I appreciate your direct responses to my arguments.
I will admit that the city does have control over land supply. This is certainly a problem. I really don’t think it is their business to control market dynamics. In fact, all that they are doing is driving up prices which is ultimately, I believe, going to lead to a bust. By opening the flood gates and letting development go as fast as possible, this thing would probably be resolved sooner with a smaller bump.
I think the sub-prime mess is just the tip of the iceberg in the US. That is the immediate problem which is stomping those specific lenders engaged in the practice. However, in general there was over-building. The homeowners are in trouble because they failed to anticipate a decline. They just kept on building as long as people would buy houses. Now they are marking down prices in an effort to ditch these houses. They are also laying off staff and have stopped purchasing new land. This will be repeated in Canada.
Justin, read about what is happening in the US. Young speculators like yourself are going bankrupt down there too. It seems so easy when prices keep going up but ultimately there will be a tipping point. Whether it be the strong dollar slowing down the economy, gas prices dropping, terrorism, or who knows, eventually this bubble will pop. I remember hearing from a lot of young folks in 99 how much money they were making buying information technology stocks. Well ultimately reality caught up with prices and that bubble burst as well. Good money is not made following the crowd, and right now everybody loves real estate.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:50 AM
“The homeowners are in trouble because they failed to anticipate a decline.”
…and they “cashed out their equity” at low variable rates until they were up to their necks in new cars, big screen TVs and all kinds of other cool stuff, including huge mortgages.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:51 AM
Alex,
I’m sure that I don’t think you’re crazy and if my comments give you that impression, I’m sorry. Sometimes your approach strikes me as confrontational. If I get a little snappy it’s because I feel that you’re unfairly characterizing someone as rich and greedy, uncaring, etc. When I recently recounted my own experience of “starting at the bottom” of the home ownership ladder you suggested that I am “greedy” because I worked hard to fix up my house and eventually sold it for more than I’d paid for it. That’s hardly fair.
Do I think your standards are too high? I don’t think I said that, but life is all about making the best of your situation. A starving man doesn’t hold out for a steak when there’s a bowl of macaroni in front of him. You start where you can and you work your way forward from there. I grew up on the “west side,” the son of a bus driver with six brothers and sisters who all lived in a 1,000 square foot bungalow so I know what it’s like not to have much. I was on my own at sixteen, I was twenty years old before I could afford a car and my first one was almost as old as I was at the time. As a young man, with a young family I always managed to run out of money before payday. It wasn’t a cake walk for me either Alex but we busted our friggin’ asses to make it work. We understood that nobody was going to hand it to us and frankly, I’m glad they didn’t.
You say I “jump down on the side of the big and rich?” I don’t think so. I have repeatedly expressed concern for those who could most benefit from owning a little real estate but can no longer afford to. Several months ago I publically refused to sell property to a single out of province investor, choosing to spend my days focused on homes. That’s what I’ve done. For goodness sake, I posted a PFO on the front page of my website. I am not an advocate of the rich but neither do I presume to know their hearts simply because they have more than I do and I’m hardly prepared to judge anyone I’ve never met based on a couple of paragraphs of text. I certainly don’t believe that they’re rich at my expense.
Yes, your positions are often extreme. When you say things like, “the time has come to pinpoint those who already have properties and make them cool off” you come off as a communist. The problems we’re facing need to be talked about but you do yourself no favours by striking out at everyone who has a little more than you do and characterizing them as greedy, corrupt thieves. You do damage to your cause by talking like a radical. I suspect that you could make a convincing argument if you chose to use enough tact to engage someone in a discussion without attacking their motives. I may agree with the premise of your argument but call me corrupt and you’ve lost my ear.
Let me assure you that I recognize that we have some issues here and I understand that it’s not getting any easier for the less fortunate to buy a home, but the market is what it is, and just because I choose not to cry about it every minute of every day doesn’t mean I don’t care.
I hope that someday you can see the great potential which exists before you.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:54 AM
Justin,
Thanks for your comment. It’s great to hear that you’re doing so well at such a young age. Keep it up man! A positive attitude is a huge asset but it’s not everything. Expect the best but be prepared for the worst. As “SomethingDoesn’tAddUp” suggests there are many who have gone down in flames truly believing that nothing could stop them. Best wishes!
April 7th, 2009 at 11:54 AM
There have been numerous posts on this board comparing Saskatoon property prices to Calgary. Now I in no way claim to be an expert having never lived in Calgary but the numbers posted here seem inflated. Now I am sure they are official, not trying to contest that. However, when I go to MLS and look at houses in Calgary, it seems that a decent house in Calgary is only 100K more than a comparable east-side house in Saskatoon. For instance, if you want a 1400-1500 sq. ft 2-storey, a 1980-1995 version in Saskatoon would go for, when all is said and done, $320-370K depending on condition. Looking around, I see comparable houses in Calgary for $425-$500K.
Is it possible, that Calgary just has a higher proportion of high-end houses that are pushing up the stats? I wonder if there are any comparisons of say, 3 bedroom bungalows to 3 bedroom bungalows in comparable areas. Has anyone heard of this type of specific stat?
April 7th, 2009 at 11:55 AM
I would like to add another question to my previous post. Could anyone give me a feel for what areas in Calgary would compare to say, lakeview in Saskatoon?
April 7th, 2009 at 11:56 AM
Hi Sam,
I can’t help you with drawing comparisons between areas in Calgary and Saskatoon but there is some information available which provides numbers on specific property types with certain characteristics. The Royal LePage House Price Survey looks at detached bungalows, standard townhomes, standard condominiums. etc. If someone can help out with some area comparisons you might find this information helpful.
Here is a link to the 1st quarter survey. Keep in mind that this information is already fairly dated. I prepare the stats for Saskatoon and I can tell you that the second quarter numbers will show some very strong increases for Saskatoon which I expect will narrow the gap even more. Those number are scheduled to be released on July 5.
Royal LePage Survey of Canadian House Prices, Q1 2007 – http://docs.rlpnetwork.com/hps/Q1_2007_HPS_EN.pdf
April 7th, 2009 at 11:56 AM
I think the Stoon market has probably cooled these past few days – everyone’s too busy posting on and reading Norm’s blog.
I’ll see you back here when we get the June stats, Happy Canada Day everyone!
April 7th, 2009 at 11:57 AM
The fear of going bankrupt is completely counter productive. If I go bankrupt so be it. I have the tools to get it all back. I’m in no way attached to money for it’s all an illusion anyways.
SomethingDoesn’tAddUp, I completely disagree that good money doesn’t follow the crowd. All good money is made following the crowd as it’s the crowd that pushes up the price. It’s knowing when to get out of the way and watch the crowd run over the cliff. Also speculating should always be a certain percentage of ones investing portfolio. That’s where the best money can be potentialy made. Just be prepared not to be attached to the outcome either way. If the economy comes to a halt and intrest rates shoot up there will be a lot of people who just own 1 home going bankrupt. So what’s the difference between going bankrupt with 50 houses or 1 house. Bankrupt is bankrupt.
The question I was addressing isn’t my investing techniques. It was that there’s no affordable housng in this city anymore. I find that statement to be false. All those people complaining about it, what stopped you from buying a house 1 year ago? The fact is if this market didn’t take off and the average price was still under $200,000 many of the complainers would still be renting. It’s not the price of a house that prevents people from owning. It’s the lack of intention to own property. The people that have intention to own property will make it happen regardless of cost. Find a friend to buy with and split the cost. Find a house with a basement suite and rent it out to help out with the mortgage. Whatever people need to do.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:57 AM
Well, I don’t really need to respond – I’ll could just agree with Justin.
I’m not a “have” vs a “have not”. First of all, I don’t think that owning a home somehow elevates me to some privileged status. If anything, we’re certainly a have not – our annual income is 40k for a family of three with 40k+ in student loan debt, among other things. We bought our 80k house several years ago, at the age of 24. Certainly, we are not rolling in the money!
I don’t really understand why, now that the market is hot, everyone who had no interest in home ownership during the cool period is some how entitled to a home now? Why the change? And as Justin pointed out, there are houses available now for a relatively reasonable price, under 150k. There are few places in this country that have jobs available and housing in that range. Although, maybe moving to one of those would be a good option for those vehemently opposed to the hot market here? I mean, less competition, more options…might take a fair bit of stress out of ones’ life.
As to the availability of serviced land, currently Saskatoon builders and the city are struggling to meet the demands of the market. Cities like Edmonton and Calgary actually have many new subdivisions being built. The problem is not with the availability of land but of the availability of residences on the land. That’s a problem in many cities and contributes to a hot market.
Beyond that, I imagine that my grandfather would say that his house isn’t worth near what he’d get for it now. After all, it only cost him around 20k when he bought. But the market says differently. His house is worth what the market says it is. And it’s a whole lot more than 20k!
Anyway, I just don’t see this as a big conspiracy. We struggled to get our first house, and I didn’t feel as though I was owed anything for that. The market will always rise and fall, and it will be very noticeable when it starts out so comparatively low. Absolutely, a bust is possible. As is a steady evening out. Basing our situation on national trends, I think that holding out hope that things will “go back to normal” by fall is fairly unreasonable. So, I think that those who think the market is ridiculously inflated and far too rich for their blood would be best to wait until they felt a bit more comfortable with it. And those who place a high priority on home ownership should make some tough decisions and get into things. But complaining? I don’t really see the point.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:57 AM
Justin, how are you going to get your money back if you go bankrupt? It takes money to make money and if you don’t have any, if you don’t have any credit, you’re out of luck.
Good luck figuring out when to ‘get out of the way’. You never know when to quit until it is all over.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:58 AM
“All good money is made following the crowd as it’s the crowd that pushes up the price. It’s knowing when to get out of the way and watch the crowd run over the cliff.”
Somehow, being called a communist ain’t so bad after hearing this.
Once again, this is the kind of attitude I’m pointing out. Opportunistic people who jump in to make a quick greedy buck. 100% morally devoid and only concerned for a fortune.
I know nothing will stop a greedy person from being such – but I think the government should recognize them and put the brakes on.
Call it communism, sure. Whatever. I think there are a lot of other equivalent concepts that bear such branding already present in our society.
There needs to be control.
Also….
Regarding sprawl, I think Saskatoon should just release the land. Winnipeg grows by huge leaps and bounds every day and it helps at least prevent prices from going up like this.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:58 AM
SomethingDoesntAddUp,
The same way Donald Trump made back his money after being bankrupt twice. I’ve got what I have now starting with none of my money and little credit. I would highly encourage a couple of courses for you. The first is called “Creating Wealth with real Estate” sponsored by Robert Allen. The second is called “Millionaire Mind” put on by Peak Potentials.
Alex,
Once again, this is the kind of attitude I’m pointing out. Opportunistic people who jump in to make a quick greedy buck. 100% morally devoid and only concerned for a fortune.
I know nothing will stop a greedy person from being such – but I think the government should recognize them and put the brakes on.
It’s that attitude why you are where you are. You assume people who have money are greedy. I’m sure that there are some who are but most that I’ve run across have a lot of love and are willing to help others achieve what they have. You could take everything away from me right now and it would not change who I am. In fact I would be quite nieve to think that I won’t loose everything I have at least once in my life. I realize that money is just an illusion like everything else. I came in to this world with no money and I will leave with no money. Once you know this deep in your core you won’t be so upset during the times you have none.
I used to think exactly like you Alex. At some point I realized that way of thought didn’t serve me or anyone else around me very well. The ironical thing is that all your whining about other people and their greed and attachment to money is precisely what you suffer from. I guarantee that you are far more attached to money than I am.
April 7th, 2009 at 12:59 PM
Alex,
I didn’t actually call you a communist. I said you sometimes “come off as a communist.” I haven’t actually decided if you are
though your government control suggestions do scare me.
I have to admit though that the image of Justin “getting out of the way to watch the crowd run over the cliff” isn’t exactly congruant with “a lot of love and willing to help others achieve what they have.”
Even though some of your views strike me as “radical” I enjoy having you around and I think that you occasionally make a good point.
Rebecca, I think you make some really good points but there’s no question there are many who tried to get in and were priced out because of the very rapid change. My thoughts turn to one single mom who started looking last fall. She couldn’t get away from work during the day to look at new listings, many of which would sell before the end of the day. Before she could actually find anything she was literally priced out of the market. I feel bad that she couldn’t get in because it would have made a tremendous difference for her and her young son.
I agree though that it has always been a challenge for young people to break into the market initially and anyone who can’t see that we are far better off than our parents were is in denial. We have so much more in terms of opportunities.
April 7th, 2009 at 12:59 PM
Norm,
Fair is fair, and my views bear no banner. I guess calling me a communist would be more accurate than calling me a capitalist.
Thing being that first they should not be persecuted for political view and second I likely diverge on a few core tenets of theirs. I find I don’t fit into any average of ideals. One foot firmly planted on the left, and the other firmly in the right
I guess I’m destined to never make friends politically.
Justin,
I just don’t buy what you say, it doesn’t pass the smell test.
Don’t worry though – I’m here making the point. And I’ve got my own plans too! I don’t know why you have to assume that I just wallow, this is a comment section on a real estate blog…
But…My plans don’t hurt others, help me and consequently don’t hang mine and my fiancess future in such a delicate and unpredictable balance.
Recklessness of the kind you’re talking about is just plain undesirable. You hurt the local economy, displace an entire city and rob it of a promising future.
All for what? A shiny run of hoy paloy?
Echoes in the ivory towers…
April 7th, 2009 at 1:00 PM
Norm,
What happened to my post last week? It hasn’t shown up. Anyway, I’ve been gone for four days and return to this much back and forth. Your blog is truly becoming the forum for a very hot topic not only in sask but in canada and internationally as well. My profession is website optimization and general web presence consulting, and I can tell you that this kind of activity is very good for you… but I’m sure you already know this
Alex’s frustrations are valid as is anyone struggling to achieve goals in huge adversity. I’ve read about the government’s ideas about subsidizing the market and I truly think that would be catastrophic for a free market no matter how out of whack, it goes against the basic principles.
The issue that I’m truly concerned with is longterm effects on the sask economy from what’s going on today. This has always been my concern and unfortunately doesn’t seem to be a governmental concern. They want notoriety now, they want numbers on the board today! And this isn’t an NDP issue, infact, conservatives are notorious for that type of behavior as well. I love sask Norm, how do we maintain the 1 step forward without the 2 steps back to follow?
J.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:08 PM
Johny,
I was just wondering where the heck you went. Welcome back. I’m not sure what happened to your post. I’ve had a few good ones hit the spam bin lately but I’ve been keeping on top of that and retrieving them. Sorry, I’m just not sure where it went.
Thanks for the kind feedback on the blog. Yes, traffic is growing and it is a very good thing.
Alex’s frustrations are indeed valid and I can relate to how he’s feeling. Some of his ideas make me batty (sorry Alex). I’m not particularly thrilled with the way things have changed so quickly and I realize that it could, and probably will lead to lots of hurting. Every week when I prepare my “Week in review” I’m just hoping to see some signs that things are moving back towards balanced, even a little bit, but it’s just not happening. I long for the days when everything was only selling 6K over list price.
I’ll post the June numbers tomorrow and they are showing another large increase in the “average selling price.”
Good to see you back again.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:10 PM
Good Afternoon all:
Well, I have been a frequent reader of this blog since late last year (2006), however, I am most compelled to respond at this time.
Alex, thank you for your entertaining posts, you make some very good points, however, I feel compelled to tell you a bit about myself which may give you some incentive and motivation to change your own situation.
At the age of 15, my parents split and neither had the ability to be a full-time parent at the time. I obtained social assistance until I was 16 and could get a job. I celebrated the day I got hired at McDonbald’s making $5 per hour/ part-time. I celebrated because I felt independant, although social assistance was topping off my cheque (extra $70 per a month) so I could at least pay rent and put food on the table (no… I was not a single parent in the event that question popped into your head). During my first week of Grade 12 in high school, I was involved with a serious vehicle accident and was unable to complete – hence high school drop-out despite attending school up until graduation. Following, I worked as a waitress and eventually was promoted to manager, yet never made more than $12 per hour. I REALIZED AT THIS TIME that if I ever wanted to have a prosperous life where I didn’t have to count every penny and live paycheque to paycheque, I and I ALONE had to take responsibility for my own life. I completed my Grade 12 through correspondence as I could not afford to take a single hour out of my full-time work. This also included doing my homework in a bar on my coffee break as I had no other alternative. Yes, I drowned myself in $70K of student loan debt, however, I made it worth my time and obtained three bachelor degrees in 6 years from the U of S (2004). NO ONE HELPED ME and guess how many tax breaks a single child-less female gets…. zip. During this time, I had many sleepless nights after working to 2am and coming home to write a paper that was due for 8:30am the same day. I could not always afford food and I did not own a car anymore…. couldn’t afford it but I kept myself content with the fact I was doing something to change my circumstances. Also while in school, I interviewed as many people who would allow in my chosen profession. I volunteered hours upon hours to gain experience in my profession and hoping to get my name “out there” in order to ease the preasure of finding work upon graduation. At one point, I was travelling to N. Battleford daily (for 3.5 years straight) so I could volunteer (that’s right, no pay and I covered the transportation expences) full-time. Upon graduation, I did obtain my dream job but I make no apologies…. I earned it! The first thing I wanted to do was buy a house. In May of 2006, I began researching the Saskatoon market with the intentions of buying in May 2007. Through my research, many realtors shared that it would be wise to purchase prior to February 2007 as a huge spike in the market was expected. On January 18th, I bought my first home and I love it…. cause I earned it! I did not need anyone else to do anything for me such as “cool the market”. Did you honestly think that someone is going to bang down your door with a “heads up” about the market? No, you have to get out there and educate yourself….
The bottom line? Get out and do something for yourself instead of bitching about it on a blog and expecting everyone else to make the sacrifices for you. Trust me, I was not sitting on any blogs when I was out there making my life.
I am proud to say that my house has now been appraised at $152K more than I paid and I love it…. that’s why they call it an investment. When it comes time to sell (of which I do not expect anytime in the future), I will not take one penny less than I have too. I worked for it and so can you!
Norm and everyone else: love the comments and the blog you(s) all (and especially Norm) have created. My best wishes to each of you.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:10 PM
Honestly, it doesn’t seem to me that Alex is look’n for handouts. He’s just as interested in buying a house today as you, Belle, seemed to be in late 2006 early 2007. The only difference is the dramatic deterioration in affordability from then to now. Perhaps it would be you voicing frustrations if situations were reversed. Given your debt and income, would you have been able to get a mortgage today? That’s one thing most don’t understand. Using rough numbers, 40K a year gets roughly 120-170K mortgage (several variables need to be taken into account, down payment, debt, dependents, etc)… this doesn’t cut it for many today in saskatoon.
Maybe instead of subsidies, Alex can ask the government for a time machine
J.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:11 PM
Johny,
I want a time machine man!
Belle,
Your story make me want to dance! What an exciting example of what can be accomplished if one puts their mind to it. Three degrees? You’re an amazing woman. Congratulations on your successes. Thanks for speaking up.
Alex is going to find a way to get what he wants as well. Sometimes he comes across as a “communist” but he has a good heart and a sincere concern for the little guy.
Hope to hear from you again.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:11 PM
Yeah, I’m one for making long posts, but what you put down really doesn’t bear any relevance.
Here’s a thought for you…
Doing what I do today, I’d make the same amount of money doing it up to five years ago. Trust me, it’s more than flipping burgers and has more to do with making blogs than writing in them…
Does that just blow your mind?
April 7th, 2009 at 1:12 PM
I’m happy for you that you have employment of which makes you very happy and satisfied…. I guess that is the end to your bitching about how the world owes you a favor…. much less selling their houses at a lesser cost so a complainer like yourself doesn’t have to exert the same effort as everyone else.
PS: I feel sorry for your wife if you have one….
April 7th, 2009 at 1:12 PM
Alex,
Lol! I had a feeling that Belle might be a little fiesty with a championship story like hers. She’s really giving you a good ass kicking, isn’t she?
Blow my mind? Not really. I might have expected that you would be doing something like that. Perhaps you will be a pioneer in the development of web 3.0.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:13 PM
Norm, it’s hardly a championship.
Stories like hers are a dime a dozen and while I wouldn’t normally ignore her efforts, I think she tries to come off as a bit too epic and legendary for my taste.
I’d have laughed harder if I wasn’t enjoying the theme to Lawrence of Arabia in my head as I read it.
“I might have expected that you would be doing something like that.”
Oh now, what’s that supposed to mean?
Web 3.0 is what people who missed the train on 2.0 are going to try and invent for a little “me too”.
Belle,
Seriously – the bleeding-heart nonsense doesn’t get you much in my books. It certainly isn’t a ticket to be disrespectful to myself or my fiancee. I mean, do you really want to get into that discussion? I didn’t think so.
I’d love it if prices went back down to a point where Saskatoon (OUR city) could have more permanent, young and prosperous members of its communities.
Right now Saskatoon has just bought itself another run of middle aged residents – hardly smart.
The character of the city has even suffered because of the common denominator of traits moving into this city.
Don’t beleive me?
I talk to people who tell me this, don’t get off thinking like these are only my opinions.
Saskatoon is in more trouble than anything a politician, real estate agent or newspaper is going to tell you.
Take a deep breath Belle: Where your trials of the past might have earned you respect, the way you throw them around just goes to show it is YOU who feels owed.
All I really saw was you giving yourself a little fanfare and using it as postage for a pretty weak argument.
To be more direct Belle, I’m not sure what makes you think like anything you say is startling or revelatory to me?
There are enough comments in this blog (by people other than me) to sift through to see that affordability as you knew it in your touching olympic memoir and affordability as it is now are two different beasts.
I’m assuming you’re finished your venemous rampage against me at this point. You show that your perspective is somewhere at the bottom of a slope that as I said, you can climb by doing some reasearch here and elsewhere. If first hand accounts and newspaper articles aren’t enough to show how uniquely distressing this situation is, then I doubt anything I say can.
As such, I won’t bother reading any more of your posts to protect us both.
P.S: Slight exception…My fiancee would gladly correct the opinion of anyone who has the nerve to go around saying what you said. RSVP.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:15 PM
Alex,
Maybe there’s something wrong with me. I actually did find her story inspirational, but then, I’ve been known to cry over television commercials.
There was nothing behind my, “I might have expected that you would be doing something like that” comment. I’m not surprised though that you’re some kind of computer genius.
“Saskatoon is in more trouble than anything a politician, real estate agent or newspaper is going to tell you.”
I have you around to spread gloom and chase buyers away.
Actually, I haven’t given a lot of advice as to whether people should get in or out. I pretty much tell them that I can’t say where the market is going with any confidence. If you were as sharp at predicting these things as you’d like us to believe you’d have bought a house last fall. 
April 7th, 2009 at 1:15 PM
Were I here, employed and the stars aligned.
A mortgage is an opportunity only just opened to me recently.
Although I’m not going to take that as carte-blanche to go hogwild. I value my credit rating and finances, which is why the current situation is a problem to me and not to the loads of near-sighted buyers.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:16 PM
Lol, I’m speechless… Alex, save your money. I’d recommend throwing it into Cameco and PCS. Things will settle down. Watch the Calgary market for a good indication of what’s going to happen here. Calgarians that have leveraged their “equity” to buy/fix/flip a saskatonian bungalow will very quickly yank their dollar out of saskatoon when the consequences of a single market economy rear head. Pray that saskatoon doesn’t follow those steps. We’ll see saskatonian flippers in swift current by next year haha.
A market correction is inevitable, given the facts. I just hope not too many actual saskatonians get hurt… Calgarian opportunists… I’m a little less sympathetic
But for god sakes man, stop stealing my rhetoric
J.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:16 PM
Alex,
Did you fall and hit your head? Don’t do it man! You shouldn’t even think about this until at least a month has passed since you scared the last Saskatoon real estate buyer away. It’s a credibility thing.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:17 PM
I’d be well happy if the only people buying were my age and made as much as I do.
I’d take the last picks (still gotta have some options!
) for it to be like that. I’m not averse to seeing good growth and good people, and I’m not just trying to rip open a hole for only myself.
So no, I won’t buy a house in this market right now. I’d never take the mortgage option as they are today, and I’d never accept the current house prices as compared to my income.
Sure, they’d lend me all kinds of money and would have for the past 6 months.
But it isn’t real, it’s just debt bait.
As for a crash…I don’t think it’ll crash by next year, this market is cornered and requires intervention of some kind. What would cause hundreds of houses in Saskatoon to go back on the market such that it fixed things to some degree?
I can’t think of anything that grand capable of happening.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:18 PM
Alex:
You are absolutely correct, after reading my previous post, I completely understand how it came off – I would have interpretted it to be disrespectful as well and I apologize to you and your fiancee for it. It was uncalled for- especially considering I do not know you. Please know that I did not mean any harm but rather in a humerous sense. Please recall that the communication on blogs is only 30% of the message you are receiving because you do not see the emotions behind the words.
To be honest with you, you strike me as an intellegent fellow who HAS done his research (a little sociology perhaps?). It is a personal choice whether or not to enter the housing market and you have clearly stated this is not an appropriate time for you. You have listed your reasons and they are (for the most part) valid – I could not see my self entering the market at this time either – not only for the debt load it would bring on myself, but also because I think buyers are being taken advantage of in alot of cases. I recognize the fact that buying a home is supposed to be an exciting and positve experience – not an auction where people are bidding – blindly in alot of cases and miserable once the results come in. I do not wish this for anyone.
My point is (as said in so many posts) is the market is what it is and housing is an investment. For many people, the value of their home is what will fund them through retirement so they want to maximize what they can get from it. I think you would have difficulty finding anyone who would not wait out for the maximum amount of money they can get for their home if they were in a position to do so.
Yes it would be great if the gap between the “haves” and “have-nots” was much more narrower and if we all “shared” our resources, but unfortunately we do not live in a society that is wholly success driven, but rather financially driven. This leads to a society of “everyone for him/ her self”.
The whole point I was trying to make is you have made your decision with respect to purchasing a home, however the circumstances of which you based your decision do not look like they are going to change anytime soon – so you have to ask yourself, if you still want a house in 5 years and the market hasen’t changed (only prices are higher), are you going to want to kick your own butt for not getting in sooner? Only you have the power to change your own circumstances – no one else – that is the society we live in.
Again, I do apologize for my previous comment – please accept it for the “tongue in cheek” it was intended. Good Luck to you…..
April 7th, 2009 at 1:18 PM
Yeah, apology accepted.
I have one really huge problem though…People seem to make earning more money sound so easy?
I don’t understand, is this fake it until you make it all over again? I mean, truthfully, the only way I see anyone making “extra” money right now is by using houses!
I will continue to bring visibility to the fact that if I am expected to grow into the current housing market, something must be done about the amount of money I’m earning. I’m in no position to simply say “I want 45k a year now or I’m gone.”
Guess where that’ll get me?
I’m too young, but as per your life-story above, being young doesn’t REQUIRE me to have poor and sloppy housing opportunities. They don’t have to be perfect, but the idea at this point is that people like myself have done all we can.
We’re up against the greed of our employers and the market, and they hold all the cards.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:19 PM
Norm, being the great online host that he is, has defended Alex but I prefer to be greatly annoyed at his recent comments which betray a little hatred and a lot of xenophobia.
What’s with this “OUR city” stuff? And only “good people” and young people, I guess you were saying should be allowed to buy real estate in Saskatoon? What nonsense. Since we’re sharing histories here, I’ll give you my Saskatoon experience. Moved there in ’69, went to school, high school, U of S and left in ’89 (I think, memories are getting foggy with middle age). Anyway, I put in my time there doing everything you can imagine: first job, first love, first car crash, first firsts… My brother and Mom still live there. I’ve visited at least once a year for almst 20 years. And yet, people on an anonymous forum and in the mainstream media single people like me out as “the problem”, the reason people like Alex cannot afford a home now. I chose to buy a rental condo in Saskatoon in 2005 and making a nice little profit every month it makes me happy. (And the 2007 runup makes smile from ear to ear). I will never, ever apologize to anyone for that and there is no reason I should.
And the same can be said for investors who have no emotional/physical connection to Saskatoon like I do. This is how cities are created, how economies grow and capital flows. Don’t like the look of it? Well I dunno communism was a lot uglier if you ask me.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:20 PM
sdude,
I was starting to warm up to Alex a bit, but then he went completely over the top with his comments in
Housing affordability deteriorates nationally, but most sharply in Saskatoon – http://www.teamfisher.com/blogs/norm_fisher/archive/2007/06/15/housing-affordability-deteriorates-nationally-but-most-sharply-in-saskatoon.aspx
Clearly, the guy has some issues and he’s up to his neck in BS. I used to think, “hey, at least he has convictions.” Now I’m pretty sure he doesn’t believe his own rhetoric.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:20 PM
All it takes is one idea to conflict against the idea of protecting something so profitable, and the walls come tumbling down, huh?
So, what? Norm, you’re in real estate. Are you sure you’re going to like what happens to Saskatoon after greed has run rampant? I doubt it.
Are you complaining about the huge pay raise you and others like you are making because you make a flat percentage?
Hmm….
If anyone has issues, it’s the socially unconsious elite making a maxiumum profit off of people who should be welcomed into society.
Neck deep in BS? Nobody has or can justify the greed going on. The rich must be put on hold for this to be solved, because they will only move in on the “solutions”.
So in order to not like capitalism, you have to like communism, eh? Shows your limited cognitive power nice and clearly.
Speaking of xenophobic…
April 7th, 2009 at 1:21 PM
Alex,
There you go again, pretending that you know me and what is in my heart.
My comment has nothing to do with the “greed that’s going on” but hoping for a “crash” is not a statement against the rich. It’s a wish of ill-will for the “average Joe,” and the motivation you express (vindication and a cheap house for Alex) speaks volumes about your own greed. How are you any better than the “rich investor” who buys up property to sell it at a profit as you wring your hands on the sideline wishing for a crash so you can steal “a home” from someone who already got screwed over once? Your “social conscience” is not all that obvious to me.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:21 PM
People who bought homes for living in and not for profit shouldn’t suffer and they likely won’t as they will be in less of a position to lose their house due to any changes.
I think the current way of the situation segregates everyone out nicely when it comes to the crash. You have the blind buyers who chose to support a market despite putting themselves and others further into debt. You have the investors who’ll simply be left with something worth far less than what they schemed for. You have the original, well intentioned and genuine homeowners who were safe before, during and will be safe after this.
I don’t know where you come off thinking like I mean everyone should just be ejected overnight from their home. I’m saying there’s been a bit of a pack mentality behind this and if people realized the implications of going rah-rah for a market way overpriced, they’d have realized a bit of assertiveness and caution could have easily kept prices at least slightly lower.
The only reason prices went up is because the perspective changed from local buyers to out of province buyers. I think those people and people who thought they could play in that league really did everyone in.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:22 PM
Alex,
You’ve already acknowledged elsewhere the devastating impact that a “crash” would have on Saskatoon. I’m sure you’re smart enough to realize that such a happening would impact almost everyone, and not just the “investors” whom you despise.
Here’s the biggest difference between our lines of thought; I actually “hope” that your income will rise to a point at which it can sustain you and allow you to own a home. You “hope” that the market will be devastated so that investors will get what they’ve got coming and you don’t seem to care who else gets hurt in the process as long as you’re able to come out of it with a cheap house.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:22 PM
Norm,
Explain to me why the practice of cornering people into having to pay debilitating mortgages completely out of step with prior statistics of mortgage-to-wage ratios is okay?
Explain to me why when we complain, we’re just told to sit down, be quiet and eat dirt? Because other people felt as though they ate the same dirt?
This is totally different. A mortgage for me in today dollars is way more ridiculous than a mortgage for older people in yesterday dollars. They are not comparable.
Explain to me why the rentals market should be allowed to go unchecked as it raises rents across the board for no good reason except “just because”. Saskatchewan is completely backwards in how it patrols both sides of the housing market.
It is unregulated, there’s very little in favor of protecting the people, it’s a rich punk’s paradise here.
My current landlord is a greedy middle aged lout, fellow tenants have spoken to me about how he does nothing to maintain the place – even between rentals. A real grinch, right to the bone…Yet he gets to hike his rent up.
People coming in and scarfing up the houses as “investment properties” are no better and have rotten attitudes. I just see a lot of bad, insecure people coming to Saskatoon with only the intention to make as big of a buck as possible. All for what? So they can buy a loud truck or some security blanket boat? It’s become so shallow, you can really tell this city is filling up with winners.
Would I like Saskatoon to find its sanity again and go back to being what it once was? Duh. But how can that happen with all the selfish unsatisfied career opportunists kicking around?
I’ve seen this city really go into the toilet in even just the past six months. My finacee and I have gone from “really glad to be here” to “wondering what has come over the city”. Our incidents of “what a jerk!” have doubled, month after month.
Now you can ACT like what I’m saying is a just a lot of paranoid nonsense. Sure, and that will probably win you a lot of respect from other readers. But I’m telling you right now exactly what’s going to drag this city down and turn it into another Calgary. I promise you, more GOOD people are going to leave this city because of what’s happening to it. You’ve already got one on your blog here, so remember…For every one, how many are NOT speaking?
Something has got to happen to restore balance, but is there anything else that could happen aside from a crash?
April 7th, 2009 at 1:23 PM
Alex,
You love to go in a hundred different directions and evade my point. I’m not arguing with you on any of these issues and I am clearly aware that there are lots of problems with this market. I think I’ve expressed all of these concerns myself on this blog.
Yes, Saskatoon real estate is unaffordable. Yes, rents are outrageous. Yes, the little guy is getting squeezed. Yes, many people are choosing to leave. Yes, everyone including you has a right to speak and should not have to shut up and eat dirt. Yes, your landlord is an ***. Yes, a “crash” or correction may be inevitable.
My point is that your little wish of doom, and the motivation which you yourself expressed (vindication and a cheap house for Alex) is selfish and greedy. That’s all Alex! They want to profit on the way up. You’d like to profit on the way down and you don’t seem overly concerned about collateral damage. See, you might be an *** too Alex. That was my only point!
Your self-righteousness and your hatefulness is getting tiring.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:24 PM
Norm,
Self-righteous and hateful? Hardly the case and I think you’ll find I’m more flexible and accepting than many people you’ll ever meet. I think certian lines are being crossed as Saskatoon explores “growth” in general that I’ve seen crossed before.
Is it righteousness and hatred? Or is it simply being direct? The overly optimistic perspective isn’t going to help anything. So long as there is something that can be seen as good in this situation, nobody will think help those who need it.
I think negativity is needed just as much as being positive. Right now, Saskatoon has seen enough positivity.
I’m not sure what your worry is as 9/10 the kind of things I hope for never happen (although given how odd the market is now, who knows?!).
It isn’t selfish and I find it really funny that you would put that on me. It’s more entertaining because I’ve had people say the same things about me from where I last lived and I’m still campaigning for improvements to THAT city – yet I have nothing to benefit from my efforts?!
If I end up having to leave Saskatoon, do you think I’d forget so quickly, Norm? Admit for just a brief moment that you don’t know me quite that well.
I mean, is it really such a good thing what opportunistic investment has done to Saskatoon? Do you think the people who are in on all the “growth” ever could care about what they are doing to the city?
Personally, I don’t think their brains are wired for that, which is why I say what I say.
Also…
You can dispute, resent, denegrate and take all kinds of perspectives on my character, but my opinion of you hasn’t changed, despite conflicting opinions.
I can for sure see that you have a clear picture and I can buy into many things you say.
Current homeowners like the people I work with every day are safe no matter what: And I am glad for that.
They don’t deserve anything bad and I wish no doom on them. Frankly, I think they’re the safest out of everyone.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:25 PM
Alex,
Thank you for clarifying your position.
Perhaps I have gone too far in pointing out what I perceived to be inconsistencies in your positions.
I apologize.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:25 PM
Norm,
No harm done and I’ve had to learn to take peoples’ reactions more as a process than any sort of final conclusion.
There is nothing innocuous about what is being done to this city by “investors”.
They know it, they just don’t care.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:26 PM
I am so sick to death of hearing how “prices of Saskatoon homes are still lower than the national average,” like that is some sort of positive, reasonable argument to screw people out of buying their first home. Give me a break.
There is a very good reason why Saskatoon homes are (or, should I say, WERE) valued considerably lower than the national average: we live in **SASKATOON**, not Toronto, Vancouver, or Calgary.
Guess what, people: Saskatoon ain’t that big of a city. We don’t live in a metropolis like Toronto. We don’t have a beautiful ocean like Vancouver. And we don’t have the Rocky Mountains a hop-skip-and-jump away like Calgary.
My point? Saskatoon is a city with a residential popuation of approximately 200,000. It’s barely a city, really–at least when compared to the other cities in Canada that shoot the housing-price index up to the stratosphere. And yet the housing situation is acting as though we live in a huge metropolis. I’m not saying that Saskatoon isn’t pretty or advantageous to live in. But when you really stop to think about it, our houses are (or were) cheaper than the national average FOR A VERY GOOD REASON. People are forgetting that we’re a very small Western city, where the infrastructure, way of life, and, most important of all, wages DO NOT REFLECT THE CURRENT HOUSING SITUATION. It’s as if we all suddenly think we live in Toronto! There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE, PEOPLE!
So it’s maddening to me when I keep hearing the poor excuse that Saskatoon house prices deserve to increase at an exponential, ridiculous rate, JUST BECAUSE WE’RE LOWER THAN THE AVERAGE. The lionshare of the people buying up all the properties in Saskatoon don’t even have a desire to MOVE HERE–they’re just trying to make a quick buck. So while our population is indeed increasing, it ain’t increasing that much.
So please–enough with the stupid “Sasktoon homes are still a huge bargain, since they’re lower than the national average” bullplop. It’s getting old, fast.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:27 PM
Robin,
You make me want to move.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:27 PM
Robin,
Keep on saying what you’re saying, don’t stop expressing the point.
Right now the people who are getting “screwed” are being treated like a bothersome group of lazy serfs.
The current government (which I have now coined as “The Saskatchewan Retirement Party”), think that we are a small insignificant minority.
Of course, even in spite of being completely untrue, so long as nobody will step forward to prove them wrong, they’ll continue to take advantage of that misunderstanding. Disgusting, isn’t it?
I made a point much earlier in a comment on this blog that for every person coming here to post their frustration, there are many many more who aren’t. At this rate, I can imagine there is a damaging number of people in Saskatoon being robbed of the opportunity to own a home.
Young people just don’t get treated with any respect or promise anymore. Too many middle aged and arrogant people who feel the need to concentrate the wealth on themselves scattered in every tier of every government & business.
Homes should not be used for any purpose other than to be lived in. Especially and if only because as time goes on, society will struggle to make the opportunity available to everyone. There’s no fairness or room for someone to come in and try to gouge the market.
It’s a dishonest and economically unconscious profit.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:27 PM
hello everyone, I am from Edmonton alberta, and I was wondering if anyone one, has a prediction on how high condo prizes will increase in Saskatoon in 2008.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:28 PM
Alex,
I have seen alot of angry and frustrating posts from you how how unfair everything is, especally for the “younger people.” I hate to say it but life is what you make it.
I was going through the exact same situation you were with being frustrated with housing prices. Instead of focusing anger at this blog I used all my resources and everything i could to get a small condo in a good area. It is not much but it is mine and i am proud of my investment, a growing investment by the way.
Everyone has to start somewhere. nothing is imposible, if I can manage to do this i know you can to. by the way i am 20 and i am a labour employee making an average wage. this is how life goes you slowly get more and more as you go on but you have to START SOMEWHERE.