18 comments so far. We'd love to hear your thoughts.

• Doug
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:51 AM

  I found the comments about Lloydminster really interesting. I myself was raised in Lloyd for 15 years, and there were some good things and bad things to living on either side of the border. For example, car insurance is cheaper in Saskatchewan, there are no health premiums, I believe provincial tax is better for low income as well. On the alberta side provincial tax is better for high income and no provincial sales tax. There’s probably more pros but cons and I don’t know them all because its been about 10 years since I’ve lived there but to me its really interesting that there have been 177 housing starts on the Sask. side of Lloyd versus 86 on the AB side during the first half of 2007.

  This is even more interesting when you consider that a new house is likely going to be built by someone with more cash and who’s likely in a higher income bracket. Typically these are the folks that want AB residence but maybe there’s some things we’re doing right in this province. Great information Norm – love the post – thought provoking.

• Belle
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:51 AM

  Thanks Norm!

• Ron in Vancouver
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:52 AM

  This is an excellent site by the way – great comments. All right, I confess – don’t hate me – I am one of those pesky BC people who have bought Saskatoon property – and yes, I am renting out long term to tenants. I am not looking to flip or convert rental housing into condos. In the last six months of this “adventure” after a number of visits, your city has really grown on me. I’m encouraging my children to attend the U of S next year and who knows -maybe they will stay in your city. In any event, I promised to write to give you guys some hints as to what to avoid. I’ve seen BC and Alberta make terrible mistakes and a few correct decisions. Growth will happen as it did for us but I hope you’ll have the insight to avoid the mistakes we made in developing our cities. Here are my suggestions:

  - ensure that you have good public transit and start setting space aside RIGHT NOW for light passenger rail or streetcars. Victoria and Vancouver did not, and now face terrible traffic congestion. Further, now that passenger rail is needed after growth in both cities, land costs are way too high now and so new transit projects are crazy expensive. Do it while land is relatively cheap and abundant.

  - don’t close down institutions for the mentally disabled and drug addicted. Our government did that years ago to “save money” which to a large part explains why there are so many homeless, mentally ill street people swarming about in BC cities. The govt. is now scrambling to build new facilities after the problem has become terrible but it is much more expensive to bring them back after you’ve closed them down. Don’t do that – it does not “save money”!

  - Don’t approve massive developments in the outskirts that make your city less liveable. Langford, a bedroom community outside of Victoria has done this – building tons of tract homes and numerous 20-45 story towers in the middle of nowhere in the distant suburbs of the western mountains. These developments are causing terrible congestion on the Trans-Canada Highway and guess who pays for the cost of widening the highway and expanding sewer and water??? Not to mention, these upscale “golf course” developments are exclusionary, unaffordable housing being bought by retired boomers and second homes for out of town people who live in isolation away from the city and community that they should be closer to. It also is causing a boom in “big box stores” which are sapping life from Victoria’s Downtown core. Don’t repeat Victoria (Langford’s) terrible mistake! (I think Calgary has also repeated this mistake on an even grander scale)

  - Putting more residents close to or right in Downtown, however, has worked very well in BC. That creates a dense, vibrant core and doesn’t strain city services like sprawl does. I notice that Calgary’s Downtown is incredibly and unpleasantly dead after working hours and I think that’s because too many people commute a long way into work and don’t live close to town.

  - On the other hand, don’t convert the industrial base of your city into condos as we’ve done – you need good jobs for people to afford to live in your city.

  - keep property tax and development costs down to encourage worthy and esp. affordable, development projects.

  Anyways, those are my thoughts . . . . .

• Carrie
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:52 AM

  Great post, Ron.

• Norm Fisher
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:53 AM

  Doug,

  I’ve often wondered how two economies can operate successfully in such close proximity. I would think that shopping across the border would be a natural for many.

  Ron,

  Thanks for the insights. Some really good stuff there. Regarding your confession; Alex should be along any minute to tear you a new one. I’ll leave that dirty work to him. Thanks again.

• Carrie
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:53 AM

  Ha Ha Ha…good one, Norm.

• Doug
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:53 AM

  Norm,

  In Lloydminster the Saskatchewan Government actually removes sales tax so in Lloyd you’re actually getting all the benefits of living in Saskatchewan plus you pay no PST. I was just speaking from a big picture standpoint.

• Norm Fisher
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:53 AM

  Gotcha Doug,

  Thanks for the clarification.

• Alex
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:54 AM

  Ron,

  The UofS paper did an article about mass transit in Saskatoon almost a year ago. I sent them a letter, offering my opinion on where Saskatoon should be going if they feel they are experiencing growth.

  Winnipeg is facing some serious issues in terms of rapid transit, and growth. They’ve made endless plays at resurrecting their downtown core, but to no avail. This has caused suburban sprawl, box malls and now offices are springing up anywhere. It starts to look more and more like Minneapolis – just without the freeways!

  Rapid transit is one of those things that if you’re smart, you’ll build just a hair before you fully need it. And you’re totally right about doing it ASAP, but most places don’t because they only implement rapid/mass transit when it’s an emergency.

  Which of course leads to it being a rather haphazard job due to all the corners that need to be cut to make it effective.

  If you do mass transit before you need it, it gives you a chance to get the jump on the work, and do it in stages. An iterative approach can make for a quality job well done.

  Specifically, Saskatoon (and Winnipeg!) would benefit the most from LRT. It’s doable, visually attractive and especially good in Winnipeg where there’s a rising water table in the ground. I haven’t done much research about the ground in Saskatoon, but it might be a smart benefit here as well.

  A downtown can die for several reasons. In most cases though, it’s because small businesses can’t afford to move in and create the vibe. You kill your innovation when you do that. A close second is crime. A certain third is a balance between pedestrian (mass/rapid transit) access, and vehicle access.

  You basically need large walkable areas with lots of cool stuff to do and look at. If you don’t create that consumer Utopian ambiance, why would anyone want to be downtown except for concrete reasons? AKA: “I need to shop at this exact store so I will come and then leave.”

  Regarding purchasing property here, you know where I stand on that if you’ve read other things I write here.

  It’s sad that you’ve robbed someone of the opportunity to own, and also contributed to the rising prices. Some might defend you by saying “but it gets turned into another rental property”. Although that’s just the latest convenient defense. We all know rental rates have gone up because of all this. So if we follow everything to the end, outside investors are still having a negative influence no matter what they do.

  Saskatoon will continue to suffer as investors choke the life out of the city.

• Ron in Vancouver
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:54 AM

  By all means, rail transit should be built BEFORE more people move in. If you build it, then development patterns will follow the rail lines rather than congested highways. It is pointless and expensive to have rail transit follow development. By that time, it is too late to do anything – look at Calgary for example, which is sprawling mess with a dead Downtown – the “C” train notwithstanding and far too late. In Vancouver, land costs are now so high and sprawl is so far advanced up the Fraser Valley that new transit lines are prohibitively expensive and difficult to build. I see you could start on a ground light rail system connecting Saskatoon’s downtown with the U of S. Eventually, you could have one on the westside going north up to the airport from downtown and then east near Broadway and then along 8th Ave.

  As for out of town buyers, Alex, we’ve been putting up with that for decades in BC with very little choice at our end. I might add that over the last 30 years lots of people from the Prairies including Saskatchewan have been buying up properties (often as winter or retirement homes) in places like Victoria because of the mild climate which has contributed to our high prices. We also have had Asians, Americans, Toronto types, and now recently oil rich Albertans and pound rich British snapping up second and third luxury condo/vacation homes which are not even rented out to tenants. There are whole buildings in Vancouver and Victoria that stand mainly empty and only occupied a few days a year by their rich absentee owners (often built on former industrial lands or believe it or not, formerly commercially zoned space which is insane and something you should not repeat in Saskatoon!!). As such, I don’t feel any guilt about providing decent, affordable rental accommodation for people in any city (I have owned rental apartments for years in BC – all rented out to people who need the accommodation). What you are seeing in Saskatoon is nothing at all compared to our situation here.

• Alex
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:55 AM

  Ron,

  Yeah, I wasn’t disagreeing with the rapid transit thing. It’s totally true. If you don’t grow it in, it’s just an ugly patchy job. Most 200k+ Canadian cities should be looking at implementing light rail. If not only because it is 100% effective, scales REALLY well, but also because it’s green.

  Saskatoon city bus transit is pretty dismal.

  As for the investment…get off of it. The mistakes of the past are no excuse to perpetuate decisions just as greedy and destructive.

  “if somebody jumped of a bridge….”

  And if you say anything about landing in a pile of money, you’ve just proven my point. Nobody cares about how their “investment” impacts the community. You think you’re noble by turning a buck, and providing rental rates, but remember, renting keeps people poor. Somebody could have owned what you bought.

  (this is regardless of the quality discussion)

• Norm Fisher
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:55 AM

  Regardless of the quality issue? Alex, you know how I hate to take issue with you but are you not contradicting yourself again? You suggest Ron doesn’t “care” and is “keeping people poor” because he owns rental property. On another post you take issue with those who own rental property and wish to sell it. I’m confused. What should one do to redeem themselves if they have rental property in their “investment” portfolio?

• Stuck???
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:56 AM

  Alex,

  What should I do…we own a house in Saskatoon but have rented it for the past year while my wife goes to school in Vancouver. We have decided to stay in Vancouver now.

  1. If I sell it I am a greedy *** cashing in on the recent appreciation.

  2. If I keep it and rent it out I am a greedy *** for exploiting the less fortunate who can not afford a home.

  Maybe I should leave it sit empty so nobody can use it…oh wait, I still need my $330,000 to but a 1 br condo in Vancouver

  Please…help me and tell me what I should do!

• Norm Fisher
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:56 AM

  Stuck???

  Hmmm. It’s unfortunate that you did not take the initiative to deal with this when the market sucked, but you do have options.

  Keep in mind that you could always burn it down and collect the insurance. This would relieve you of having choose between two obvious evils and allow you to leave with a clear conscience as you’ll avoid having to put it to some stupid sap. As an added bonus, you get to stick it to “the man” at the same time. This is what we call a “win-win.”

  Best wishes.

• Stuck???
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:57 AM

  Always an option

  I wonder why Alex has no response? Do I win…I am sure Alex must have an opinion on my situation???

• Belle....
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:57 AM

  Hi Stuck??:

  Alex told me to tell you he is out looking for that free dreamhome he’s been keeping an eye on… then he is off to a commie convention this weekend…….. he may be gone a long long long long long long long long long time…

• Norm Fisher
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:57 AM

  Personally, I am kind of missing Alex and hoping that he’ll drop by soon. Every community needs a cynic.

• Young Saskatoonian
  April 8th, 2009 at 11:58 AM

  Belle, Ron, you two are right on.

  Alex,….alex…oh dear boy what school did you take your economics class in? I would like to speak with your teacher.

  I am a 25 year old living in saskatoon. Graduated from uofs two years ago and got a job here in town. Unfortunately its bull-headed opinions like alex’s that make our province look like a bunch of commie hillbilly’s. Lets change our image! Free market is good. They figured that out like 50 years ago Alex.

  Get with the game! People can buy whatever they want, thats how money works. If you don’t like it start trading sheep for donkey’s. Maybe the NDP should seize all foreign investments and create a new Crown Corp called “Sask Holdings”. What you think?